tookatooka
2108 posts
Jan 24, 2011
9:31 AM
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A couple of questions about scales again if I may please. I've been practicing my pentatonic scale and a couple of things occurred to me which I find puzzling.
A lot of importance is given to scales practice but as a musical theory challenged player can you tell me:
1. When you decide to play a piece of music do you make a conscious decision as to which scale you are going to use within the piece. E.g. Pentatonic or Blues Scale, and stick with the notes in that scale throughout the piece?
2. Adam spent a lot of time talking about the 'Blue Third' in his online videos and how to reach it, but when you use the Pentatonic Scale you go from D2 to D3** missing the blue third completely. Does this mean the Pentatonic Scale isn't as bluesy as the normal blues scale?
As you probably realise, the scales mystify me a bit and apart from just getting to know them well, (so you can navigate your way up, down and around the harp)is there anything else I should be concentrating on where scales are concerned?
Many thanks for your replies.
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MrVerylongusername
1512 posts
Jan 24, 2011
9:38 AM
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The minor pentatonic and blues scales do have a flat 3rd (not quite the same as blue 3rd) the major pentatonic (think 'my girl' hook) is more poppy than bluesy
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tookatooka
2109 posts
Jan 24, 2011
10:06 AM
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So, are we saying the G major Pentatonic on the C harp is not very bluesy?
I'm sorry about this confusion but I obviously need to do more research on scales which I will be doing.
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Baker
97 posts
Jan 24, 2011
10:21 AM
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1. When you are improvising it helps to pick a scale and stick to it. However it's not a hard and fast rule. Depending on the piece you can drop other notes in too. I'll often use 2BLOW/5BLOW when playing blues, even though it's not in the blues scale.
2. The major pentatonic is definitely not as bluesy as the blues scale. Playing a minor pentatonic will sound more bluesy, however there are some specific notes ("Blue 3rd", flat 5th(4DRAW bent in 2nd pos) and flat 7th (5DRAW in 2nd pos)) which give the blues scale it's distinctive feel. I tend to use pentatonic scales for playing over country, folk, blue grass type stuff. It can also be used for playing over things like reggae and rock etc.
The way I look at it is, scales have their own individual character. A certain feel. The obvious one is major/minor – happy/sad. Thinking about which scale to use is about what sort of feel you want to give to a piece of music. Or what sort of feel the song demands.
EDIT: Removed miss-information
Last Edited by on Jan 24, 2011 11:08 AM
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tookatooka
2111 posts
Jan 24, 2011
10:37 AM
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@Baker. Thanks. This is the sort of information I need.
Just to show my ignorance. You say, "The major pentatonic is definitely not as bluesy as the blues scale. Playing a minor pentatonic will sound more bluesy".
Does that mean I could play a G minor Pentatonic Scale?
If so, how?
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MrVerylongusername
1513 posts
Jan 24, 2011
11:15 AM
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2nd posn minor pentatonic - 2d (3b), 3d', 4b, 4d, 5d, 6b
2nd posn Blues - 2d(3b), 3d', 4b, 4d' 4d, 5d, 6b
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Baker
98 posts
Jan 24, 2011
11:20 AM
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Firstly, appologies. The information I wrote about the 2BLOW/5BLOW was incorrect. However it is a useful note and can be applied in certain situations in a blues context. I have edited my original post.
My theory is not great. I have learned to play by ear and so make decisions about which scales to use from experience. So for me the best way to learn about which scales to use is to practice them in context.
Find a couple of songs in the key of G, a i,iv,v blues and maybe a folk/country type thing. Try playing the blues scale in G over them both, then try playing a minor pentatonic, also you might try playing a major pentatonic too for reference. Listen, see how the feel changes.
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tookatooka
2112 posts
Jan 24, 2011
12:08 PM
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OK Thanks Guys. I'll do what you suggested Baker, that sounds a good idea.
I plainly understand my knowledge in this arera is lacking so I intend to study scales etc a lot more. I believe it's something I need to know a lot more about. Thanks.
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hvyj
1177 posts
Jan 24, 2011
1:06 PM
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To answer the OP questions:
1. Yes, you usually pick a scale to work with, but you usually don't just stick to the notes in that scale. In general, you do not want your playing to be so scale bound that you only use scale tones. Among other things, chord tones are important, too. But, it depends on the tune. On certain tunes or certain passages it may be that the only notes that fit well are from the chosen scale.
2. One of the differences between the minor pentatonic scale and the blues scale is intonation. The minor pentatonic scale has a minor third (half step flat) and a minor seventh (half step flat). the blues scale has a blue third (quarter step flat) and a blues seventh or harmonic seventh (a little deeper than a half step flat). Blues scale also has a flat fifth which is an additional note that is not in the minor pentatonic scale. So, besides the additional note, the difference is how you intonate the third and the seventh.
BTW, a blue third doesn't work on a MINOR blues. Playing in a minor key you need a true minor third, although you can deepen it a little sometimes for inflection when playing minor key blues.
Also, in major key blues you never play a blue third over the IV chord since that note is the seventh of that chord and should be played at least a half step flat to sound right.
You can't notate the blues scale accurately on a staff.
3. General oversimplified rule of thumb: Use the MAJOR pentatonic scale on material that has a major 7th. It is NOT a bluesy scale--it is sometimes called the "country" scale but is sometimes used on R&B material, too.
Scales are a means, not an end. Certain scales work better over certain chords. Pentatonic scales are very useful for soloing and improvising because they work over a wide variety of material if you know which one to use for the particular tune you are playing.
Last Edited by on Jan 24, 2011 1:37 PM
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Bart Leczycki
14 posts
Jan 24, 2011
2:31 PM
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For me scales are little bit like colors on painting/picture.
You decide what kind of picture you will make.
If you take a minor pentatonic (with b5) it's like navy blue or kind of dark and sad color - your picture will be sad, "depressing" and gloomy. If you take a major pentatonic it will make your improvisation more optimistic like yellow, orange and light green color :o)
Personally I don't care about scales in blues, I try to make dramaturgy of my improvisation. If I play difficult chord progressions I try to find right scales and connect all for nice melody. It's my way.
Major pentatonic is very universal, good for regge, country, japan folk, rock, gospel and many others.
We should know a few basic scales to make good OUR music (like basic colors: red, yellow and blue).
Shortly you can play:
MAJOR blues = major and(!) minor pentatonic, blues scale, mixolydian.
MINOR blues = only(!) minor pentatonic, dorian and/or eolian.
In fact you can play every note, check Salvador Dali or Picasso :o)
Best regards
==============================
www.myspace.com/bleczycki
Last Edited by on Jan 24, 2011 2:38 PM
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harmonicanick
1068 posts
Jan 24, 2011
2:54 PM
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Melody is what the audience likes and remembers and I like bart's analogy about colours.
Took, don't lose sight of your gut instinct in impro, the scales sit behind the melody, what makes you happy, play that.
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tookatooka
2119 posts
Jan 25, 2011
3:31 AM
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Thank you for that link @gene and also the other contributors to this post.
I have also found this site http://method-behind-the-music.com/ where I intend to do some studying. Thank You all.
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Last Edited by on Jan 25, 2011 3:31 AM
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Greystonesman
41 posts
Jan 25, 2011
3:38 AM
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I'm so glad I'm a member of this forum. Thanks guys. I find it an invaluable source of information. It's like starting school over again
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For sure, an old dog can learn new tricks
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tookatooka
2120 posts
Jan 25, 2011
4:03 AM
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@Greystonesman. Yeah! Only trouble is there is so much information available it is quite easy to become overwhelmed. You need to be very selective and disciplined.
Say hello to Truro for me. Been there many times on my way to Helston and Coverack on the Lizard. Nice place.
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Barry C.
150 posts
Jan 27, 2011
12:41 PM
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@hvyj - thank you!
One last scale bump>
if the scale is 6B 6D 7D 7B 8D 8B 9D 9B (do-rei-mei with the 7b) what position is this? First?
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~Banned in Boston!
Last Edited by on Jan 29, 2011 9:26 AM
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hvyj
1182 posts
Jan 27, 2011
12:53 PM
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Second position, Mixolydian mode/scale.
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