SoulHarp
2 posts
Jan 19, 2011
1:56 PM
|
I need lots of help and got lots of questions for y'all
Why do you tune to 441,442,443 or 444 ? what style do you play ? Do you consider yourself a hard or soft blower ? And What tuning ET, JI or Compromise?
|
Roverharp
7 posts
Jan 19, 2011
3:20 PM
|
The basic idea is to tune the just sharp enough to counteract the natural lowering of pitch when playing semi aggresively or when condensation builds up. In this case the actual tuning is done with low breath pressure.
I think any number of compromise tunings are the way to go. I like JI with only the 5/9 draw raised. Or, the current Hohner Crossover tuning has major thirds that are only -5 cents. This sweetens the chord a bit but, given all the other variables, will sound flat to only very discrimating ears.
I use a baseline that allows for equal +/- deviation from ET. A442 seems to work for me and I consider myself a generally softer player. Anyone who needs to tune to A444 must really be pounding the harp. On the other hand I've read that the brain can more readily tolerate a somewhat sharp note than one that is flat.
You'll just have pick somewhere to start, play with other ET instruments and see if your personal attack is acceptable or makes the harp play noticably flat or sharp.
|
hvyj
1141 posts
Jan 19, 2011
5:52 PM
|
I play with a relatively strong attack and use A442 pure ET.
The acid test of intonation for me is when i have to play with horns. i find i have no intonation problems whatsoever at A442 pure ET.
When Lee Oskars first came out in the 1980s I believe they were tuned to A444 at that time. I used them for a while, but stopped because i would get complaints from keyboard players that i was out of tune. I don't think LOs are tuned that high now.
|
Jim Rumbaugh
374 posts
Jan 19, 2011
6:50 PM
|
here's another vote for 442
----------
intermediate level (+) player per the Adam Gussow Scale, Started playing 2001
|
SoulHarp
3 posts
Jan 19, 2011
8:05 PM
|
THank you guys for responding so quickly
this forum is a answer for my prayers .
I have a set of Golden Melodies that are great for a jazz/funk group I play with .
And a set between Marine bands and Blues Harp for my blues gigs . I'm starting to get frustrated because i realize my BLUES HARPS ARE TUNED TO 444. I play very very soft , so I am sounding really sharp
Is it recommended for me to take all my BLUES HARPS and tune them down to 442 or is that gonna put the reeds through to much stress ?
|
7LimitJI
338 posts
Jan 20, 2011
1:31 AM
|
You have to find what works for you 442 seems to be average,so would be a good place to start.
Another consideration is how you tune.
I tune to 444,but use the lightest breathe possible whilst tuning. Just enough to get it to register on the tuner. This gives a more consistent reading from reed to reed.
If you blow/draw harder whilst tuning, you'll need to go closer to 440
----------
The Pentatonics Myspace
Youtube
"Why don't you leave some holes when you play, and maybe some music will fall out".
"It's music,not just complicated noise".
|
barbequebob
1502 posts
Jan 20, 2011
9:47 AM
|
I prefer A442 or A443, but if you're a really hard player, anything lower than either of these two is a big mistake and for some really hard players, A444 may actually make more sense because the harder you play the flatter the pitch gets.
A441 is only recommended for a player who uses an extremely light breath force 24/7 98% of the players on the plant don't play light enough to use this or they'll fall below A440 almost constantly.
----------
Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
|
barbequebob
1503 posts
Jan 20, 2011
9:51 AM
|
I prefer A442 or A443, but if you're a really hard player, anything lower than either of these two is a big mistake and for some really hard players, A444 may actually make more sense because the harder you play the flatter the pitch gets.
A441 is only recommended for a player who uses an extremely light breath force 24/7 98% of the players on the plant don't play light enough to use this or they'll fall below A440 almost constantly.
----------
Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
|
Jim Rumbaugh
375 posts
Jan 20, 2011
10:59 AM
|
You guys got me thinking, so I researched and learned something. My software tuner (APTuner) displays in cents
441 aprox 4 cents sharp
442 aprox 8 cents sharp
443 aprox 12 cents sharp
444 aprox 16 cents sharp
----------
intermediate level (+) player per the Adam Gussow Scale, Started playing 2001
|
hvyj
1151 posts
Jan 20, 2011
12:51 PM
|
@Jim Rumbaugh: These "baselines" assume pure ET tuning. Non-ET tunings vary several cents from the baseline depending on the particular note/hole.
|
SoulHarp
5 posts
Jan 21, 2011
3:01 AM
|
barbequebob- this might be off topic , I don't any other way to contact you.
I just received two Crossovers in the mail and the tuning is a mess , the harps are beautiful but the tuning is all over the place.
Do you know where I could find exactly what steve bakers intent was with the tuning of the CROSSOVER ,I have being searching on the net but nothing is clear .
this would help me out alot , thank you !
|
REM
32 posts
Jan 21, 2011
4:27 AM
|
Here's Steve Baker explaining the compromised tuning used on the Crossover:
Steve Baker: Crossover Tuning
Last Edited by on Jan 21, 2011 4:28 AM
|
SoulHarp
8 posts
Jan 21, 2011
5:26 AM
|
Regarding this :
Steve Baker: Crossover Tuning
Is this what it ends up looking like
Holes__1 ___2___3___4____5___6___7___8___9___10
out ____0__-5__+1___0__-5__+1__ 0_ -5_+1___0
in____+8__+4___0__+5__+2__+6__0_ +5_+2__+6
and do low keys get tuned a bit higher because they bend easier ?
If so wouldn't higher octave of the harp have to be tuned slightly flatter ?
Last Edited by on Jan 21, 2011 5:28 AM
|
SoulHarp
9 posts
Jan 21, 2011
5:27 AM
|
Regarding this :
Steve Baker: Crossover Tuning
Is this what it ends up looking like
Holes__1 ___2___3___4____5___6___7___8___9___10
out ____0__-5__+1___0__-5__+1__ 0_ -5__+1___0
in_____+8__+4___0__+5__+2__+6__0_ +5_+2__+6
and do low keys get tuned a bit higher because they bend easier ?
If so wouldn't higher octave of the harp have to be tuned slightly flatter ?
|
7LimitJI
351 posts
Jan 21, 2011
5:36 AM
|
"and do low keys get tuned a bit higher because they bend easier ?
If so wouldn't higher octave of the harp have to be tuned slightly flatter ? "
Yes. The lower notes play flatter.
A quick way to do it is tune the blow 3,4 and 5 with a tuner, then tune the rest by ear playing octaves to the 3,4,5.
For the draw 2,3 4,5 and 6 with tuner, the rest as above.
If you do it like that you end up with perfect octaves. And chords that are near enough.
You can go much further with tuning, but this works well for me.
----------
The Pentatonics Myspace
Youtube
"Why don't you leave some holes when you play, and maybe some music will fall out".
"It's music,not just complicated noise".
|
Jim Rumbaugh
377 posts
Jan 21, 2011
5:45 AM
|
@hvyj said "@Jim Rumbaugh: These "baselines" assume pure ET tuning. Non-ET tunings vary several cents from the baseline depending on the particular note/hole. "
The purpose of the the hertz to cents chart was to show the relationship. The title of this thread is 441,442,443,444. But when we talk about tuning, we aften refer to cents. like SoulHarp did in his post.
SOOOO. IF SoulHarp wanted 442 tuning, AND his pitches listed above were relative to 440, his 1 blow(out) would need to be raised 8 cents.
I understand that OTHER HOLES may vary depending on the temperment you elect to use for tuning your harp
----------
intermediate level (+) player per the Adam Gussow Scale, Started playing 2001
|
walterharp
522 posts
Jan 21, 2011
6:52 AM
|
Buddha mentioned to me that he tunes to 440 because he likes the "darker" sound associated with playing tuned slightly lower than 440
|
REM
33 posts
Jan 21, 2011
2:36 PM
|
"Buddha mentioned to me that he tunes to 440 because he likes the "darker" sound associated with playing tuned slightly lower than 440 "
Thanks for posting this, I was just about to ask a question regarding this. I have two of his harps that are tuned to ET and I was confused because when I checked them against a tuner they both appeared to be tuned to 440 and I wasn't sure why, or if he had even intended to tune them that way. I don't really mind becuase I've noticed that when I test my harps(all my harps, not just the customs) against a tuner, the pitch seems to stay the same whether I'm using as little air pressure as possible or whether I'm playing rather hard. I know the pitch is supposed to drop when you play with regular breath pressure or harder, but that hasn't really seemed to be the case for me when I check against a tuner. This is why I've been thinking of tuning my harps to 441 (ET).
Last Edited by on Jan 21, 2011 2:38 PM
|
barbequebob
1506 posts
Jan 22, 2011
8:06 AM
|
@SoulHarp --- What you're thinking is as mess is TOTALLY WRONG because it says that you assume that all diatonic harmonicas are tuned to ET tuning, and that has NEVER been true at all.
There are clearly far more harps tuned to ET now than when I started back in the 70's. Back then 95% of diatonic harmonicas were tuned to 7LJI (7 Limit Just Intonation) and the only ones that were ET tuned (but not solo tuned like a chromatic, which requires them to be ET tuned) were all Asian made, that being Tombo, Yamaha, and Suzuki, and at that time, they were in extremely limited districution only in small areas on the West Coast.
These days, because diatonic players are playing them in genres once believed that it was once only territory for chromatic players, 75% of the diatonics today are tuned ET, 20% are tuned comprimised tunings and only 5% are tuned to either 7LJI or 19LJI today.
I have a complete list of diatonic harmonica tunings at the following link:
http://www.deltafrost.com/diatonic-harmonica-tunings-an-update_topic6473_post63914.html?KW=Diatonic+harmonica+tunings#63914
@ REM --- I'd be rather cautious of tuning to A441 because you can sound really flat against a band playing in REAL A440 in a hurry. The idea of tuning A442 is so that no matter how hard you play, you will NEVER fall below A440 and tuning anything lower than that, if you don't have a breath force that PHYSICALLY LIGHT enough to do that, that is a really bad risk to take and 98% of all the players on the planet, big or small name pro or otherwise, cannot do that at all.
----------
Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
|
SoulHarp
10 posts
Jan 22, 2011
3:12 PM
|
@barbequebob - I wasn't assuming it was ET tuning , actually I don't have a clue what to assume , that's why I was askin you for guidance. I saw your post about crossover tuning and I didn't see my match that tuning , or any other tuning therefore I called it a mess. Could you please help figure out what they should be tune too , I don't want to put the reeds through too much stress !
You said that you use 442-443 , do you use compromise ,if so could you post the measurement ?
Thank you guys, I really appreciate everyones input !
|
SoulHarp
12 posts
Jan 22, 2011
5:04 PM
|
@barbequebob - thank you for the list of diatonic harmonica tunings.
I am just having problems figuring out the same thing that the "harpdude" asked
harpdude- Bob either I am misreading Steve Baker's message or there is an error in your chart for marine band crossover tuning. Baker says that 4 and 8 draw are tuned "1 cent higher than 2-draw (i.e. + 5-7 cents)." However your chart has 1+ cent for 4 and 8 draw. I think it should say 5+. Similarly he says that 6 and 10 draw are tuned one cent higher than 4 draw, so I think 6 and 10 should read 6+.Steve
Is this what it ends up looking like
Holes__1 ___2___3___4____5___6___7___8___9___10
out ____0__-5__+1___0__-5__+1__ 0_ -5__+1___0
in_____+8__+4___0__+5__+2__+6__0_ +5_+2__+6
This is what confused me about the crossover and why I called my crossovers a mess , cause my out of the box crossover had there tuning all over the place .
- and i did do as suggested , I put my strobe tuner on 443 and blew lightly and got this
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
out 0 0 +1 +6 0 +10 +7 +8 +12 +9
in +8+17 +10+15+8 +12 +2 +15 +11 +15
I knew is a lot of stuff I am asking , I just wanna tune my harps and get back to blowing !!!
|
boris_plotnikov
422 posts
Jan 22, 2011
9:52 PM
|
I'm soft blower, 442 or 441, I prefer 442 a bit more. 443-444 are too high for my taste.
----------
Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
|
PT
79 posts
Jan 23, 2011
5:46 AM
|
Seydel 1847's half-valved ET 442. Sometimes I leave the first three holes as a compromise tuning and go ET the rest of the way.
----------
"Life...10 Holes & 20 Reeds At A Time"
|
Xpun3414
173 posts
Jan 23, 2011
7:15 PM
|
This seems to be a very good topic to speak on for us new players.
you all say to tune a bit higher if your hard on the harp. I seem to be very hard on mine. So I guess 444/5 would do me good? & how would I tune it so? Ive no idea about any of this. I get the whole gapping thing now. but tuning... HA-not even close ;)
|
barbequebob
1507 posts
Jan 24, 2011
7:47 AM
|
@SoulHarp --- One thing that is VERY IMPORTANT to remember when doing any tuning or checking it is that to get it correct, you need to use the SOFTEST breath force you can physicially manage or it will NEVER be correct at all and too often people play too hard and it has negative effects on the tuning.
The 2 draw seems unusually sharp. One thing also to remember is when breath moisture and/or layers of dead skin get dried on the instrument, it also has an effect on the pitch. If it lands at the free end, the pitch drops, if it lands at the riveted end, it pitch goes upward.
The info I got is from Steve Baker's post on Harp-L and one thing I've learned also is not to totally rely on a tuner and also use your ears as well.
Sometimes rather than retune a reed with a file, razor blade or anything else, cleaning the reed plate off often helps by removing dried on crud that alters the pitch.
From the way your post sounded, I couldn't help but assume that you believed all harps are tuned to ET, so my apologies for that.
@Xpun3414 --- Tuning is not something that's gonna be done in 10 easy lessons and it will take time.
----------
Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
|
hvyj
1174 posts
Jan 24, 2011
9:07 AM
|
@Xpun3414: A444 is awfully sharp. Even if you play with a strong attack, you may have problems playing in tune with the rest of the band using harps tuned to A444.
I think stock GMs are tuned to A443, but I'm not sure.
|
SoulHarp
13 posts
Jan 24, 2011
6:04 PM
|
@barbequebob- Thank you for your reply, seems that with each thing you post i learn something new. ; )
This never ran through my mind :
" One thing also to remember is when breath moisture and/or layers of dead skin get dried on the instrument, it also has an effect on the pitch. "
after i tune by playing softly , should i also try playing hard to make sure that I am not going flat when playing loud ? or is there something I'm missing ?
|
barbequebob
1508 posts
Jan 25, 2011
7:57 AM
|
The idea of harmonicas NOT being tuned to real A440 pitch is because harp makers know for a FACT that 98% of players on the planet, including pros and non pros, often don't play soft enough in terms of actual playing breath force wise to play ANY harmonica tuned to real A440 and actually play it that way as well (tho a phone ccnversation with Brad Harrison I had over a year ago, Brad told me the ONLY player he had ever met who could actually play a harmonica tuned to real A440 and play it that way was Howard Levy, threw me for a loop, and playing any harp that way for me is not easy). By tuning a harmonica A442 or higher, it means that no matter how hard you play it, it will not play lower than A440 at all.
If you're playing any harp tuned A442, unless you're a ridiculously hard (or stupidly hard who blows out harps by the month, which is flat out bad playing technique in no uncertain terms), you shouldn't ever be playing below A440, so I wouldn't worry so much.
I should also say that the breath moisture that gets dried on actally becomes what is known as saliva, and this drying on the reed and changing the pitch is something 80% of players NEVER think about at all, and the saliva problem is often a result of too often playing with far too much force all the time (notice that I did NOT say occasionally) and those are the players who often blow out harps pretty quick no matter who makes them.
The only stock harp I know that is tuned right out of the factory on purpose at A445 is the Hering Golden Blues, one of the few models they tune to ET tuning and to need it that high, you gotta be playing damned close to being stupidly hard all the time.
Most Golden Melodies I've seen are usually at A442-A443, often depending on either who did the tuning or the key. During the 80's to the mid 90s, Hohner's lousy quality years, I've seen a number of D's, E's, and F's, regardless of the model tuned as high as A444.
Another thing to remember is that in some Europen countries over the years, based on the pitch standards of their respective symphony orchestras, some of their standard pitches are higher than A440, tho in the last 20 years, it's become much closer to being A440, and some countries standard pitch has been A442 to as high as A444 and so out in Europe, it may not be a surprise to see some diatonics tuned on the higher side.
----------
Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
|
