I am sitting here with the playoff game muted listening to SB I on an awesome 3 disc set (out of four) that I picked up at my used book store for cheap and I've decided that I like SB I better than SB II. Don't get me wrong as I really like SB II, but I think SB I is my preference based on these 78 songs and the other two discs I have. Anybody else agree with me? I hear roots of SB II, Big and Little Walter - at the least.
I listen to both players. I love the music of both players. John Lee Williamson is awesome and a hugely influential artist to harp players and non-harp players alike. His songs have midlife and changed over the years, but he was one of the most infuentail artists of the time period. If you dig his music, check out his contemporaries like Big Bill Broonzy, Leroy Carr and Memphis Slim. ---------- The Blues Photo Gallery
Yeah thanks, I do have some of those guys as well as the 78 songs on this new series I got at the book store has Yank Rachell, Big Joe Williams, Tampa Red (one of my favorite artists), Willie Dixon, Big Bill Broonzy, Blind John Davis, Ransom Knowling, Washboard Sam, Judge Riley, and a couple others. And to think I picked them up for less than $5.00 a disc. Woohoo! ---------- snakes in Seattle
Check out the disk "Blues in the Mississippi Night" with A. Lomax interviewing John Lee, Big Bill Broonzy and Memphis Slim. Not sure what label it is now on, mine is on Ryko. I love his music, 15 or so years ago had a web page devoted to him that is still floating around.
I love his stuff too - the energy and clatter of it (and I mean clatter in a good way: eventually I realised that what I was hearing was Tongue blocking). I reckon Heart2harp must be a big SBWI fan. Also I realised the other day that Joe Filisko's Angry Woman (off IC Special) is a speeded up SBWI lick set to a different beat - especially the turnaround.
SBWI is good to listen to, and you shouldn't underestimate his skill, but he's from a much earlier era, and if you learn harp from him, you'll sound a bit stilted and imitative. What he has to teach is limited
I think SBWII has more to teach, and learning from him will give you skills with more general applicability. I actually prefer him in every way. ---------- Andrew, gentleman of leisure, noodler extraordinaire.
@Andrew I agree with that-rice miller must have been pretty impressed with sbI playing as he stole his identity and then was taken off the air on king biscuit time for doing it
"SBWI is good to listen to, and you shouldn't underestimate his skill, but he's from a much earlier era, and if you learn harp from him, you'll sound a bit stilted and imitative. What he has to teach is limited" Really? Tell Kim Wilson,Magic Dick,Mark Hummel,Billy Branch and countless others that,and see what they have to say. John Lee Williamson was king of the low register,speccifically the 2 hole. To be proficient at playing blues harp,control of the 2-3 holes are critical.
@sydeman enjoyed the website on john lee-I had heard him called the "father of modern blues harp" before-probably the earlier harp players like deford bailey played first position mostly and sbI was maybe a revolutionary player in that his recordings are mostly crossharp-rice miller had a very different style but no doubt the influence is there as it was with little walter
What he has to teach is limited? You need to listen a bit more attentively. He is the father of Blues harmonica. Little Walter, Big Walter, Snooky Pryor, Billy Boy Arnold, Junior Wells, Carey Bell and damn near every blues harmonica player since 1935 was influenced by John Lee Williamson, whether they know it or not.
I like John Lee Williamson, but I don't really hear the genius that others seem to hear. I wouldn't call him "father of blues harmonica", since guys like Hammie Nixon, Noah Lewis and others were there before him. It seems to me that SBWI learned a lot from Hammie Nixon, but I reckon that he raised that style to another level of playing. Anyway, Rice Miller's playing sounds more original to me.
But maybe I don't know enough of his music, I only have the "Bluebird sessions" and don't know the stuff he recorded later.
Apart from that, I love the blues from 20's to 50's, this week I've been listening a lot to Bo Carter and the original Barbecue Bob, both great bluesmen !
Last Edited by on Jan 17, 2011 1:53 AM
I don't have any gripe with SBWI being one of the fathers of blues harp. The thing is to distinguish direct and indirect influence. Of course his influence can be traced down the line, but that's very indirect and theoretical. To be directly influenced by him requires a person with an open mind, someone with a little genius. For instance Beefheart or Hendrix might have been influenced directly by Robert Johnson (but possibly mostly as an antidote to pop-music crud that was around in the Fifties), but if a second-rate musician (like most of us) merely learnt to sound like Robert Johnson, he would sound foolish. I think the same will be true of SBWI. I think SBWII offers more scope.
---------- Andrew, gentleman of leisure, noodler extraordinaire.
Last Edited by on Jan 17, 2011 2:32 AM
Van Vliet pulled more from Coltrane,Coleman,Monk and Taylor than he did from Johnson. Jimi pulled from BB King and Muddy Waters-I know the early Hendrix influences for a fact-my Uncle served in the 101st airborne with Jimi.
one thing most people don't realize is SB1 was recorded with primative gear compared to SB2. Todays culture doesn't hang long with low sound quality when they are paying for a product. This includes much of the population that like blues. Just listen to a kim wilson video that somebody did on their hand held camera at a gig and compare that to his studio albums. Often those live videos sound no better than a local blues jam video. It is night and day how much more detail you hear on a quality recording. Listen to the early SB2 recordings on 78's. they can go right by most people because of the low fideity of them. One has to really listen to hear what SB1 has going. If he was recorded on what SB2 was at chess, we would be having a ton more fans of his around. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
looking at the yardbirds video it`s obvious to me why clapton left them to play with john mayall-he wanted to play pure blues and not commercial recordings that the ybs did
Someone above said the two Sonny Boys were of different eras. Actually, I believe they were contemporaries in terms of age. Wikipedia says SBI was born in 1914 and SBII was born somewhere between 1899 and 1912 (probably closer to 1912). However SBI, was recorded in 1937, while SBII did not record until 1951, after the death (1948) of SBI.
If you give the early SBI recording a listen, you will immediately hear that SBII was deeply influenced by him. He covered some of his tunes outright (e.g. Decoration Day) and even his singing style is similar in many ways, including the reuse of specific turns of phrase from SBI songs (although this may have just been the vernacular of the time). And of course, he assumed the identity of his predecessor.
So perhaps most people prefer SBII (including me), who was also undeniably great, because he was recorded in the fifties, in more of a classic Chicago blues style that a lot of people today like and associate with "the blues".
SBI is most associated with pre-war/pre-electric, country-style blues. He was clearly a great innovator of blues harmonica, and deserves our attention and appreciation, but his recorded legacy is not everyone's cup of tea today.
I'm not a huge fan of SB1,but it's impossible to ignore that he was an influential player. LW was greatly influenced by him. Today,he may sound dated,but in his times, he was an innovator. He was the bridge between country and Chicago blues harp. If you can't see that,then you need to dig deeper into blues harp players and their place in its history. :)
Walter - I picked up a John Lee Williamson CD that had been remastered and cleaned up. It's called the Right Kind Of Life. The sound really pops.
On his later recordings, done shortly before his death, you can really hear the sound that influenced Little Walter and Junior Wells. In fact, the 50's recordings by Junior, where he covers Sonny Boy tunes, sound like a copy of John Lee Williamson tunes. ---------- The Blues Photo Gallery
I have about 200 songs by SB I and probably 250 by SB II to make the formation of my opinion. Again it is just my opinion and I really do like SB II, but I just felt like I heard a greater variety of techniques in the playing of SB I. I also liked what I heard better. Great debate everyone and I can respect the folks who favor SB II. I figured most of the forum members would like SB II the best.
@ Miles - Don't kick a dog while he is down. Except for the Seattle Storm, Seattle is a darn hard place to be a sports fan. Everyone knows the Hawks didn't deserve to be in the playoffs, but we certainly enjoyed getting to see one of our teams be there (let alone get a win). Imagine what it is like to have most (and on any given bad year - ALL) of your local sports teams play terribly most of their games... Must be the rain I guess. Or the Starbucks (wish that guy would have moved out of town with the NBA team he sold). ---------- snakes in Seattle
A couple of years back I bought a 4 CD box set of SB1 recordings. It says it was "Remastered from Original Recordings". It probably has 100 songs. I am not sure if I every was able to listen to all 4 CDs. It just sounded simple to me...or to say another way it didn't make my foot tap.
Maybe it is as Walter said, the low fidelity sound is just not as appealing.
On the other hand I have listened to my SB2 CDs lots. I just find his music more complex.
maybe this thread should have been sbI vs sbII-but as far as I am concerned there would be no winner I loved what was accomplished by them both and quite sure they make any top 10 list
I don't think it's a either/or situation. Both of those guys were great! John Lee Williamson was hugely influential and his contributuion shouldn't be overlooked or minimized.
Listen to John Lee Williamson then listen to Little Walter and all the electric harp greats. He is the direct link to that. There are pictures of him playing through a Green Bullet so he may have been one of the first electric harp players. There aren't any known recordings of that, though.
Without the 1st SBW, you don't have ANY of the greats after him. Even early LW is essentially souped up SBW I. For a better bit of listening to his playing is really not even on recordings under his own name, but usually as a sideman, especially behind Big Joe Williams and when you hear what he's doing, you can hear just how many different players he clearly influenced over the years.
The Green Bullect mic, like Astatic JT30's, were both actually very commonly used mics for PA use in the 40's all the way to the mid 60's, so that's why there are pictures of him playing thru one.
Also, his vocal style, which was caused by a bad stutter is also highly influential as well.
Both SBW's are great for a variety of reasons. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
