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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
The Great Shure Black Label CR Mystery...
The Great Shure Black Label CR Mystery...
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BlueDoc
9 posts
Jan 10, 2011
12:46 AM
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Dear Forum Readers,
Here, for your entertainment and edification, I offer my sad and curious tale:
The Great Shure Black Label CR Mystery (Or: Did the Buyer Beware A Little Too Much?)
I freely admit to being a fool in the area of harmonica gear. And it's generally true, like they say, that a fool and his money are soon parted. But in this case, however, a fool and his money were reunited. My question is, was I a greater fool for reuniting with my money, or for parting with it in the first place?
I went to a local guitar show yesterday, just before closing time. I had brought my harps and mics, and was hoping to try out some amps. But I found a booth where a guy was selling old mics, $100 each. Included in the bunch were a brown bullet shell containing (he said) a black labeled CR element, and another brown bullet containing (he said) a 40's crystal element. I'm not really a bullet mic guy at the moment--I'm more interested in working on a cleaner sound--but these deals seemed too good to pass up. (Plus it was my birthday... I had all my rationalizations ready to go...)
I tried the CR with an amp he had for sale. It sounded pretty good, as far as I could tell in a large echoey room busy with guitar noodlers. (Note to self: guitar shows not very good places to buy instruments, because you can't hear what anything sounds like.) It didn't blow me away, but maybe it wasn't the right amp. But it certainly seemed to be worth the hundred bucks, so I bought it. The guy seemed nice enough; he lived relatively nearby, and said he had some amps at home that he had tweaked for harp, and some more mics; and he gave me his phone number.
Outside in the parking lot, I got curious to see what a black label CR element looked like. I had a small screwdriver with me, so I took the grille off. Inside I found what appeared to be a new rubber gasket secured with new electrical tape. I took off the tape and removed the gasket from the shell, and looked at the back of the element.
Now, I didn't know what a black labeled CR element was supposed to look like, but I once had a 520D Green Bullet with a CM element that I had opened up, and on this basis I expected that the element would say "Shure Brothers" on it somewhere. But it didn't. It had a square of black tape with some numbers on it, but no "Shure Brothers" anywhere. That, plus the fact that the entire element--front and back--looked too new and shiny to be sixty years old, made me wonder whether or not I had the real deal. I didn't actually conclude that the guy had cheated me--maybe he had given me the mic with the crystal element by mistake (I didn't know what those elements were supposed to look like either.) But I was beginning to have some suspicions.
I went back in and said, hey, I think maybe I've got the wrong mic. The element doesn't say "Shure Brothers" on it. When the guy saw that I had opened up the mic he was not pleased. He said quickly, "Put the mic back together, and I'll give you your hundred dollars back." "Fine by me," I said, and that's what we did. "Thanks a lot," I said. "Thanks NOT a lot," he said, "and lose my phone number." "No problem," I said.
From the way he acted--particularly that he straight away refunded my money, when a confident explanation would have reassured me--I felt my suspicions were confirmed. The guy was squirming at having been caught trying to scam me. I left the guitar show with many dark thoughts, unkind comparisons to carny hustlers, etc.
But when I got home and Googled "Shure black label CR" etc., and looked at pictures of the elements, I began to think that maybe I'd made a mistake. The pictures of the black labels had no "Shure Brothers" on them; just numbers. And there was some variation in the appearance of the black label elements from one mic to another, so maybe mine was just another variant that didn't make it into the pictures I happened to see. And after all, how likely is it that some other type of element besides a genuine Shure one would even fit inside a Shure shell? Maybe the guy was just offended that I had doubted his integrity.
On the other hand, one seemingly-authoritative source (greenbulletmics.com) said that "Shure Brothers" would be found on a small sticker on the side of the element. I didn't find any such sticker on the side of my element. (If it had been there and I'd simply missed it, the guy could easily have pointed it out to me, instead of getting ticked off. Why wouldn't he expect that customers are going to open the mics up?) And the front side of my element also looked slightly different than the pictures, as I recall. (Too bad I didn't have a camera with me to photograph the element, since my memory of how it looked is a little hazy.)
All in all, there was no real harm done. I had my little consumer adventure, I got my money back, I can get another black label CR someday if I really want one, and as I said before, I'm not really a bullet mic guy at the moment anyway. (As you see I've still got a complete set of rationalizations... :-) But I'm still wondering about this mic. Some of you on this forum have a lot of experience with bullet mics and elements of various types. Do you know of any Non-Shure elements with black tape on the back--especially shiny, brand-spanking-new ones--that work in Shure shells? Or was the one I bought and returned (probably) the real McCoy?
Thanks,
Mark
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7LimitJI
286 posts
Jan 10, 2011
2:04 AM
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There are a few differences between CM and CR elements
The most obvious main difference is the small metal disc that is glued to the diaphragm.
See pictures half down page here
http://www.greenbulletmics.com/
The transformer bobbin is bakelite or some other stuff.Not plastic like the later CM's.
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Ray
284 posts
Jan 10, 2011
4:05 AM
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I could be wrong, but I think it is unlikely that anyone would knowingly sell a Shure Black Label element in a bullet shell for only $100
With the internet and ebay it is pretty easy for a seller to see what they generally go for. Just my opinion. :o)
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strawwoodclaw
181 posts
Jan 10, 2011
8:48 AM
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a Shure black CR in a Brown Bullet is worth $300 - $400++ if you find the right person who wants one which shouldn't be a problem . The 40s Shure crystal elements are the best sounding elements going if you want a huge output with a big fat round bassy sound they sound much better than the best CRs but it is rare to find them in good working condition.
I have used CRs & CMs on amplifiers which sound lousy but when you plug a Shure r7 or 99-331 in it sounds like the best amp I ever herd
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Greg Heumann
987 posts
Jan 10, 2011
9:53 AM
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I've seen surprisingly LITTLE evidence of counterfeiting these elements. I have seen those stickers on the side, however and I they do fall off frequently. If that element had the "metal hat" then it was a genuine black label.
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/Greg
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rharley5652
354 posts
Jan 10, 2011
2:48 PM
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@BlueDoc
There are counterfeiting of these CR Blackie elements,.
I've not seen him on ebay for awhile now,.
But a guy on ebay takes Low Z elements an rewires the transformer to make em Hi-Z's ,..
Even has Video's on how he tears em apart an rewires the bobbin assy.
Though a lot he does not show (secret)>LOL
When he's done,. he uses Black tape that looks close to Shure's original Black tape ,.then uses a silver marker to write code #'s on the black tape so they look like Black CR's,.
Anyone not in the know of Shure Black labels would think they are getting the real deal,.
That guy selling Black CR's for 100 bucks with a shell,. may have just known what he was selling,.
As they say Buyer Beware !
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Simply Unique Kustom Mic's By Rharley
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strawwoodclaw
183 posts
Jan 10, 2011
6:12 PM
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I can remember that guy selling black label CMs that he had modded but he did state clearly in his auction that they was not controlled reluctance elements . the tape he used looked exactly like the material used on the original CRs . I once bought a Green Bullet from 1951 with a 99G86 black CR buy it now $125 which I was happy about. You can still get bargains on ebay
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rbeetsme
358 posts
Jan 10, 2011
7:07 PM
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You've learned what everyone needs to learn, know your product first, then begin the hunt. This is good advise on buying nearly anything. Especially true when buying online.
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rharley5652
356 posts
Jan 11, 2011
12:34 AM
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@ strawwoodclaw,.My be true what you say About him saying that they were not CR elements ,. I don't remember all,.
The Point I was trying to get across was whomever bought these type of elements may have well had the idea of selling them as CR Nock-off's to unsuspecting harp players,..
A reputable Builder /seller would have explained the history of Shure to BlueDoc & not have gottin pissed cuz he opened the mic an questioned him!
Who knows what evil lurks in the mind,. to make a Buck <>
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Simply Unique Kustom Mic's By Rharley
Last Edited by on Jan 11, 2011 12:35 AM
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BlueDoc
12 posts
Jan 11, 2011
12:43 PM
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Thank you all for your comments.
@shbamac:
"The "black tape" that covers the back of the element is made of cloth. All CRs should have a small shure bros sticker on the side of the element. But it is possible that it came off or was taken off."
The black tape was made of cloth. But it was shiny new, which surprised me. I would have thought that even a NOS element would have aged, even sitting in a box on a shelf for sixty years. It seemed to me that the tape would have oxidized a bit.
@Ray:
@strawwoodclaw:
The guy told me something like, "I know, I know, I'm probably stupid for selling them this cheap...." Maybe so, but in retrospect, that sounds like one of those classic lines.
@rharley:
How do I find they guy on Ebay you're talking about? I'd like to see that video.
I agree with you that there's something weird about the guy getting pissed at me.
@rbeetsme:
Thanks for your point. I did learn my lesson. At least it didn't cost me the hundred bucks to learn it!
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Honkin On Bobo
575 posts
Jan 11, 2011
1:12 PM
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After reading this thread, I just know I'm going to wind up paying serious money for a tin can on a string, when i buy my first mic.
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rharley5652
357 posts
Jan 11, 2011
4:06 PM
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@ BlueDoc,.
maybe the best thing ya did was walk away from that one ,..the tape being shiny new ,...a given ,.Shures tape probably never was Shiny back in 1949-50,.Who knows ?/
Somne Blackie's came from Shure an were cover with a plastic shell on their back ,..I believe even those were Dull black tape,.the thing to Look for is the silver print it was always stamped on the tape an never written on (Kinda like the ol' banks used to stamp the date on checks,...
I can tell ya Polyken made a black tape for industry that is a close runner for Shure's tape,..Cloth like,.Except it's also shiny,.
Another given,.."new rubber gasket secured with new electrical tape"
Electrical tape on the gasket,.
A No-No for any mic Build!!
THANKS TO GREENBULLET.COM
HERE IS WHAT TO LOOK FOR IN A BLACK LABEL SHURE CR <>
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Simply Unique Kustom Mic's By Rharley
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shbamac
50 posts
Jan 11, 2011
4:18 PM
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The guys nick is hamsammich12 on ebay. He goes by the same nick on youtube
As rharley5652 posted above the tape is more dull and is not shiny like electrical tape but it can look "shiny new" or more so it has a sheen to it.
Last Edited by on Jan 11, 2011 4:26 PM
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rharley5652
358 posts
Jan 11, 2011
6:13 PM
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@ shbamac,.
YES ,.But the Original Shure tape has a leather look to it also,.
Another thing to look for that is a sure fire way to tell your getting a CR an I agree,. as Greg pointed out many times,.. you can't change the Top Hat,.(See pics of pics from Greenbullet .com)
Also the color of the Bobbin <> Hi -Z CM's have a White bobbin made of plastic,..Hi-Z CR's had their bobbins made outta a Bakelite material that looked Blood Red in color<.
These are all important tips for buyers to know,. as lets just say( an I would never do this)
I would buy a CR off ebay,.and lets say I get it at a good price 100-150 Bucks,..
Now it a killer CR element an I want to keep it <>
I peel the original black tape off it an glue it to a CM,. put er back on ebay,.
See what I'm saying ,..the more ya know the better off you are,..ya look at the pics an see that dab of White epoxy ,.you know it's not a CR,..
If your looking to buy get on over & read what the Guru Dave Kott has to say at Greenbullet.com
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Simply Unique Kustom Mic's By Rharley
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BlueDoc
13 posts
Jan 11, 2011
8:04 PM
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Thanks shbamac and rharley,
I took a look at hamsammich12's YouTube videos. I don't think it was one of his elements, because I don't recall the numbers being handwritten on the tape like his. (BTW, his method of rebuilding the element looks like fun, and I would try it if I had a dead element to play with. I would choose a different color tape though, to prevent misunderstanding.)
I really wished I had taken a picture of the element, but I had forgotten my cell phone. And now I just can't remember the key details well enough. I didn't know what color bobbin material I should have been looking for, and so I don't remember what I saw. (I seem to remember it being white, but I'm not sure.)
I also didn't know to look for the little metal "top hat," and so now I don't remember what that part of the element looked like either. It even seems to me now (though I can't be sure I really saw this) that there wasn't even a hole in the middle of the element's front side, that I'd have looked through to see the top hat. Is that possible? Are there elements (maybe non-Shure ones) without that hole, which could be made to fit into a Shure bullet shell?
Thanks again for educating me about this. I am really glad I walked away from this one. Even if the mic was the real thing, it's worth far more to me to have an idea of what I'm doing, for next time.
Cheers,
Mark
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rharley5652
359 posts
Jan 12, 2011
10:13 PM
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@BlueDoc,.tearing an element apart (n my opinion)is not the way to go to make it Hi-Z,.
Shure made some the best element out there,.that's why they lasted so many yrs.
They were machined perfect,.You tear one apart an it's never the same,.
Note low volume when talking into them is one hint somethings not right!!
There is a better way to hop-up a Low -Z element by way of an Impedance Matching Transformer,.IMT,.
With an IMT you don't destroy the elementmt,.
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Simply Unique Kustom Mic's By Rharley
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