DanP
169 posts
Dec 09, 2010
9:36 AM
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I understand the difference between a crystal and a ceramic mic element. I know that a ceramic is more durable. But what is a dynamic element and what do they mean by a dynamic mic? Thanks.
Last Edited by on Dec 09, 2010 9:37 AM
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rharley5652
306 posts
Dec 09, 2010
1:29 PM
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Dynamic microphones employ a diaphragm/voice coil/magnet assembly which forms a miniature sound-driven electrical generator. Sound waves strike a thin plastic membrane (diaphragm) which vibrates in response. A small coil of wire (voice coil) is attached to the rear of the diaphragm and vibrates with it. The voice coil itself is surrounded by a magnetic field created by a small permanent magnet. It is the motion of the voice coil in this magnetic field which generates the electrical signal corresponding to the sound picked up by a dynamic microphone.
Dynamic microphones have relatively simple construction and are therefore economical and rugged. They can provide excellent sound quality and good specifications in all areas of microphone performance. In particular, they can handle extremely high sound levels: it is almost impossible to overload a dynamic microphone. In addition, dynamic microphones are relatively unaffected by extremes of temperature or humidity. Dynamics are the type most widely used in general sound reinforcement.
NOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A CM an a DYNAMIC?
A controlled magnetic element is a variation of a dynamic element.
In the controlled magnetic (also called controlled reluctance) element:
1) the magnet is stationary,
2) the wire coil is stationary,
3) the metal diaphragm moves a ferrous rod that disturbs the magnetic field,
4) thus causing an output signal in the wire coil.
Now the Million dollar question:
(Q) How do the controlled reluctance and controlled magnetic elements vary sonically?
(A) There is no difference between the two.
(Q) Will you find Harp players who will still spend 250-300-400 Bucks for a CR?
(A) Yes !
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Simply Unique Kustom Mic's By Rharley
Last Edited by on Dec 09, 2010 1:31 PM
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DanP
170 posts
Dec 09, 2010
5:53 PM
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rharley, thank you much for the information.
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Greg Heumann
931 posts
Dec 11, 2010
10:36 PM
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"re: (Q) How do the controlled reluctance and controlled magnetic elements vary sonically? (A) There is no difference between the two."
I COULD NOT DISAGREE MORE
There absolutely and positively is a difference in tone between CM's and CR's. There is a difference from element to element as well - a really good, 1 out of 100 CM will outperform an average CR. But they are different. Just because the electromagnetic principle is the same doesn't mean that is the only factor that affects tone.
MANY factors affect an element's tone:
- Diaphragm suspension and mass
- Design of the magnet
- Choice of magnetic material
- Design of the coil
- Distance between the ferrous rod and the magnet/coil assembly
- How the rod is affixed to the diaphragm
- How the coil is wound
- ...
Amongst the above factors there are several differences between CM and CR, as well as among CM's themselves.
But you don't need to know all that. All you need to do is listen. HOWEVER: A beginner player typically hears very little difference, because the differences are most pronounced when the mic is well cupped. Pro players can hear the differences immediately. There is a REAL reason that CR's demand more money. They sound different - it is up to the listener to decide if that is better - and they are more rare. So they are more expensive.
RJ Mischo just spent a few HOURS at my house blowing through different CR elements. In his hands the differences between elements, even when not mounted in a shell (just cupped in the hand connected to clip leads to the amp) were audible - he could hear the differences instantly. He picked a good one and he loves it.
I picked an element for Kim Wilson's mic - he told me it was the best CR he ever heard.
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/Greg
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rharley5652
312 posts
Dec 11, 2010
11:18 PM
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(Q) How do the controlled reluctance and controlled magnetic elements vary sonically? (A) There is no difference between the two."
@ Greg
Well that's your opinion !!!
My "elements vary sonically" Info about the CM & CR's came straight from Shure!
Didn't I say :
In the controlled magnetic (also called controlled reluctance) element:
1) the magnet is stationary,
2) the wire coil is stationary,
3) the metal diaphragm moves a ferrous rod that disturbs the magnetic field,
4) thus causing an output signal in the wire coil.
Also this is what the Guru / David Knott at www.greenbulletmics.com has To say about :
CR's vs. CM's
I often get asked, "what is the difference between a CR and a CM"? Well the black labeled CR's have an obvious difference in the material of the winding bobbin. All the black label CR's have the phenolic bobbin, and the very first white labeled CR's have them as well, but not many were made before switching to the plastic version. CR's also have a small cymbal shaped metal disc that Shure used to glue the foil diaphram to the center pin of the magnetic armature pickup. You can see it glued to the center of the diaphram of all CR elements. I have never seen a CM with this disc. I do not believe that there were ever any CM’s made with the metal disc on the diaphram.
There is also a slight difference between the two as far as how the winding wires were ran to connect to the lead wires of the element. I have seen a very few CM elements that were wired the same way as the CR's, and all were made right at the time when Shure started calling them controlled magnetic transducers. Many people like the tone of the CR's better than the CM's. I think the two are very close in tone but the CR's have a slightly grittier tone to them. This is likely attributed to the metal disc on the center of the diaphram. Other than that, a white label CR and an early 60's CM are basically identical.
There appears to be a lot of hype over the black label CR's these days. I really can't explain that. I think that the white label CR's have a tone that is just as good as the black labeled CR's. As I mentioned earlier, you will occasionally find one that really stands above the rest. This goes for all the different models of CR's and CM's too. If you happen to find a really good black label CR, it will likely be the best harp element you've ever heard, but again, they are very few and far between. Trying to find one today could put you into debt if you get carried away trying to find the ultimate element! You're better off paying someone whom you know has one the big money for it instead of trying to find one on your own.
There are some very exceptional white CR's and CM's too. You're more likely to find a really good white CR or CM because the construction of the later elements was more consistent due to refinements in the parts they used, and better glue used to secure the diaphram to the pin that transmits the vibrations from the diaphram to the magnetic armature.
These day's, the prices have gone through the roof for the CR elements. This is because there are now a bunch of people seeking out every microphone ever made that has a CM or CR element in it on ebay. Some of these people seem to have deep pockets too and are bidding on every mic they can find with a CR in it. This is unfortunate for those who would like to buy a CR element, but you don't have to pay that kind of money to get one if you know where to look for them (see the page on collecting vintage mic's). These few people who are paying upwards of $200 and sometimes as much as $300 for mic's with CR's in them are apparently so greedy that they won't let one or two pass by. They apparently are not mic builders, as they can't possibly make a profit on them buying at these prices. I can't imagine the prices going any higher but I wouldn't be surprised. Nobody in the right mind would hoard these things and pay $200+ for each one. They'll be lucky to break even if and when they decide to sell them. If you would like to get a CR for your mic, you can get one for as little as $5 if you are patient and know where to look. The last black CR I bought I paid $2.75 for. Thats right, $2.75, not $275. I've purchased mic's with high Z CM's in them for fifty cents too. These deals are not that hard to find, and if you're patient, you'll get your element dirt cheap as well. DO NOT look to buy elements on ebay unless you're prepared to pay 100 times more than you can get one for elsewhere. Let the CR hoarders (you all know who you are) pay out of their noses for them on ebay. They will end up eating them for lunch when they find out they can't sell them at a profit.
You can also read what he says about Collecting vintage mics<>Where Not to Find Them!
Very interesting ?
But the question still remains!
(Q) Will you find Harp players who will still spend 250-300-400 Bucks for a CR?
(A) Yes !
Ohh' Sorry I tried to get bold print!
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Simply Unique Kustom Mic's By Rharley
Last Edited by on Dec 11, 2010 11:40 PM
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jim
522 posts
Dec 12, 2010
2:21 AM
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On a concert, you will never hear any difference.
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www.truechromatic.com
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Greg Heumann
935 posts
Dec 12, 2010
9:14 AM
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@Jim - yes, you will. If you can come to where I am I could prove it to you beyond a shadow of a doubt.
@RHarley - what Dave Kott (not Knott) says is consistent with what I said. What Shure said was to avoid losing sales when they STOPPED calling them CR and started calling them CM. As others know, the most likely explanation for the difference in tone is the manner in which the rod is connected to the diaphragm, the CR using a crimped metal "hat" plus glue, the CM using glue only.
The market will pay what the market will pay. I can't tell you how much of a CR price is driven by myth, greed, rarity, or true appreciation of tone but I'm sure there's a bit of all of those in there. In the markets I watch they're a lot closer to $200 than $400 though.
What I can tell you is that the proof is in the hearing. If you can't hear the difference, then you'd be really stupid to spend the extra money.
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/Greg
Last Edited by on Dec 12, 2010 9:16 AM
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rharley5652
314 posts
Dec 12, 2010
12:23 PM
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@ Greg,.
Knott was a typo !
As for Shure telling me "There is no difference between the two sonically".
An you saying:
"What Shure said was to avoid losing sales when they STOPPED calling them CR and started calling them CM.
Shure sold those communication mics/elements to the Military & Ham Radio Operators ,..
I doubt they lost any sales because of a name change,. Two different names for the same concept !
An Yes one could argue / debate all night long about the difference in tone between a CR an a CM,..
But then you could also debate that the Mexico CM's are inferior to the USA CM's,. tone an build wise?
Also In today's economy the prices have dropped a Lil' on the CR's,. But as Dave says "the prices have gone through the roof for the CR elements"
Half dozen of one,. dozen of the other,.
You say potatoe ,.I say potato !!
@ Jim,..I agree,.at a Juke Joint / Bar / Concert <.
I doubt you could walk up to the harp player an say,.Your blowin through a CR - 100% right !
EDITED to correct spelling !
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Simply Unique Kustom Mic's By Rharley
Last Edited by on Dec 12, 2010 12:48 PM
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KingBiscuit
7 posts
Dec 12, 2010
1:54 PM
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I wonder why no one had "re-issued" CM and CR mics?
I'm guessing it's lack of demand, but it would seem like those mic gurus would be able to produce elements that would rival those produced years ago.
Dan
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ZackPomerleau
1339 posts
Dec 12, 2010
2:13 PM
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I've used them all, I think they all sound essentially the same, but the dynamic has more tonal capabilities.
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ZackPomerleau
1340 posts
Dec 12, 2010
2:18 PM
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Dan (may I call you that?), Shure told me they are more expensive to produce...whether truth or not, I don't see a demand. I would say dynamic is better.
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Greg Heumann
938 posts
Dec 12, 2010
2:47 PM
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We covered this in another thread. They are more expensive to produce, and nobody has EVER manufactured an element specifically for harp players. The market just isn't big enough to justify the investment. That was true then and it is true now.
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/Greg
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rharley5652
316 posts
Dec 12, 2010
10:45 PM
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@ Zack
Dynamic microphones have relatively simple construction and are therefore economical and rugged.
True,. nobody has manufactured a CM-CR element specifically for harp players,.
But Shure did design their R198 element for The 520DX,.
Which is billed by Shure as the 520DX "Green Bullet"
Harmonica Microphone,..
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Simply Unique Kustom Mic's By Rharley
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jim
528 posts
Dec 13, 2010
12:22 AM
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Ron,
I'll continue your thought:
"...and it sucks"
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www.truechromatic.com
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7LimitJI
233 posts
Dec 13, 2010
1:36 AM
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There is a definite difference in sound between every element regardless whether its CR or CM.
Some have a flat response,others accentuate the mids, some have more bottom or top end.
Every Astatic crystal element I have is different too.
I have 2 shure R7 crystals. One has huge bottom end with rolled off highs, the other a broad flat response.
You'll need to kiss a lot of frogs till you find your prince.
Its an expensive process!!!
Different mics work better with different amps,different tube combinations,different tone settings.
As far as not being able to tell at a gig. The player can, and thats all that counts.
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The Pentatonics Myspace
Youtube
Due to cutbacks,the light at the end of the tunnel has been switched off.
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stones
15 posts
Dec 13, 2010
7:54 AM
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I agree with 7LIMIT. most of the time a person in the audiance cannot tell the difference between a CR and a CM at an open gig. I have two I take with me to evry gig one is a black CR and the other is an older CM. and the way that my amp is tubed THERE is a very big differance between them. the CR is more grittier and the CM is way more smoother almost has a creamy sound to it. I know that I've had lots of mic's I've found at ham radio shows and garage sale with CM's in them and half sounded not to good. BTW I found my black label CR at a garage sale for $5.00 and the ARCHER IL series mic that I put the CR into at a swap meet for $2.00 I've had guys offer me big bucks for it now but I wont sell. I had Chuck Gurney at FATBOTTOM mic's do a tune up on the CR for me. this little combo really rocks.
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