harpdude61
525 posts
Dec 08, 2010
9:17 AM
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This may sound silly, but I'm going to ask anyway. Maybe it is something that is already done or something Greg H. could do.
Everyone loves the sound of my Ultimate 57 with my Double Trouble amp. I have never had to mic the amp or use the line out.
Problem is I am often is a situation where it is difficult to hear myself. I know getting in the monitor would work.
Is there a way to use the line out from my Double Trouble into a small thingamabob that would clip on my belt, have a volume control, and plug my Ipod earplugs right into it? Would it affect my volume out of the amp??
One thing I have noticed in my short jamming career is that you must hear yourself to play your best.
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Joe_L
875 posts
Dec 08, 2010
10:00 AM
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If you aren't doing this, put the Double Trouble on a chair. You can also consider pointing it at your head. If you can't hear that amp, the people you are playing with are probably playing too loudly.
I've got one of those amps and it's only been drown out one time. I was playing with a really loud group of guys.
You are using an impedence matching transformer with the Ultimate 57, aren't you?
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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harpdude61
526 posts
Dec 08, 2010
10:30 AM
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I bought it from Greg. Do I need something else? To be honest I have feedback issues if I get loud enough for some bands, so I try to get as far away from my amp as I can.
So is my idea not likely?
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hvyj
883 posts
Dec 08, 2010
10:36 AM
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Set the amp LOUD and adjust input gain by rolling off volume on the VC of the mic. You can get MUCH louder before feedback by turning the mic down and the amp up than you can by just turning the amp up. Depending on the amp, this may also improve tone.
Last Edited by on Dec 08, 2010 10:37 AM
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Shredder
207 posts
Dec 08, 2010
10:42 AM
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H/D I wound up buying an in ear monitor set up. Its a Shure wireless set up. Works well but takes some getting used to and there is some set up / plugging into the monitor mix you will have to do.
Try what the others suggested and see if it works for you. I still wound up with the personal ear monitors.
Mike
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harpdude61
527 posts
Dec 08, 2010
11:33 AM
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hvyj...I will try that. I always run my amp up about 3/4. My guess is your way will make my VC on the mic very touchy. People are always telling me I need my mic VC wide open for solos and just bring it back a tad for back-up parts.
SHredder...I would do that if I was in a band and involved in the set-up. Most of my playing out is at jams and a couple of bands ask me up for 3 or 4 blues songs. So I just plug the amp in and go.
I guess my idea is not realistic and it seemed cheaper than wireless. I have a small Hog 20. Wonder if I would have feedback issues if I ran the line out and put it close to me.
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hvyj
885 posts
Dec 08, 2010
12:14 PM
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@harpdude61: The term "wide open" is relative. You will lower the VC setting when comping and open it up to the setting that gives you max volume before feedback for solos. That will be your equivalent of "wide open."
I do this with my Super Reverb and my Princeton Reverb using a 545 Ultimate. The Super is a pretty loud amp, so, yeah, I need to pay attention to where the VC on the mic is set, but i wouldn't say it becomes "touchy." Just pay attention and be aware of how far you can go.
Now, the sonic characteristics of some mics degrade when you roll off output volume but this is not the case with Greg's Ultimate series mics, so you won't need to worry about that.
The tonal characteristics of the AMP may vary if you crank the volume, so you may need to readjust the tone controls accordingly. Let your ears be your guide.
Last Edited by on Dec 08, 2010 12:19 PM
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harpdude61
530 posts
Dec 08, 2010
1:42 PM
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THanks hvyj!
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5F6H
428 posts
Dec 09, 2010
6:34 AM
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I still think that positioning the amp on stage better will be a big help...running the amp signal through a monitor will present it's own problems...good for spreading the amp sounds round the room but a nightmare for feedback loops on stage, unless you are prepared to set the amp so that you don't need to hear it at all & just use the monitoring on stage....assuming that you have regular access to a monitor. I think it sounds like you need a bigger amp.
But your initial question got me thinking...I am only suggesting this as an experiment & ONLY recommending using the equipment specifically discussed, CHECKING certain data along the way...
I guess (YOU NEED TO CHECK) that your HG DT line out consists of a 2.2K (red/red/red) resistor from the speaker jack to the line out jack, and a 100ohm (Brown/Blk/Brown) resistor accross the line out jack - IF THIS IS NOT CORRECT, SAY SO (PM me if you don't want to reveal HG secrets to the public). You don't need to touch anything in the amp chassis, just unplug from the wall, pull off the back cover & look, speaker & line out jacks do not retain any DC voltage.
Once checked, if I'm right, this equates to a 23:1 voltage divider, your DT might make between 9 & 13VAC at the speaker, delivering 360-560mVAC at the line out. Too much for I-pod/MP3 ear buds, but OK for proper headphones, which might have to take 5-6VAC.
If you were to plug in a pair of Beyer 131 w/volume control (IMPORTANT), 40ohm (IMPORTANT) headphones into your line out jack, the voltage divider now becomes a 74:1 ratio delivering <180mVAC to the phones. Whether this is enough for you to hear above a band...I don't know for sure, the line out is mono, so you only get sound in one can (I would do a Van Gough anyway and keep the other ear free for hearing what is going on around me), the Beyer 131 are open design anyway. You won't look too cool & you will probably forget you have them on, walk off the stage & leave a trail of destruction behind you...
No guarantees, but for $40 odd it might be worth a punt? You may find other brands of headphone that could work, need to be relatively high ohmage & NEED a volume control (VITAL).
NEVER EVER plug headphones into an amp's speaker jack, this will result in deafness/blown tubes/blown headphones/blown output transformer...& more. I am only suggesting this, in this exact example, assuming the specific values listed.
Last Edited by on Dec 09, 2010 9:04 AM
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toddlgreene
2201 posts
Dec 09, 2010
6:49 AM
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Another much cheaper option: wear one earplug. Just a foamy one. Why does this work? Because your harp is in your mouth, and the sound reverberates thru your head. You will hear yourself, at least what's going on acoustically from your harp. Wearing just one will also keep an ear open for nuances you might not hear with two in. I've done this many times when suddenly sitting in with a loud band, or when the volume wars get ridiculous. I always keep foamies on hand. In my own bands, it's easier to keep everyone's volumes in check, but in jam situations, you don't usually have much say so.
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Todd L. Greene, Codger-in-training
Last Edited by on Dec 09, 2010 6:50 AM
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HarpNinja
813 posts
Dec 09, 2010
7:08 AM
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QuikLok makes a stand for small amps that lets you tilt the amp like a monitor. I HATE using monitors and will avoid at all cost. When I use the stand, I then put the amp infront of me like a monitor and mike/lineout front of house.
My second choice would be elevating the amp behind me. The tone control on that amp can add a lot of cut, FWIW, and it may be worth experimenting with having that higher even if you turn the volume down a bit.
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Amp for Harp Blog
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toddlgreene
2202 posts
Dec 09, 2010
7:14 AM
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It is amazing what just jacking up the amp a few inches and tilting it will do. Just like home theater:the more on level with your ears, the clearer and better you will hear it. That amp of yours is a loud little mother. I'm willing to bet a cheap stand with a little pitch to it will solve your issues. If not, it's high time to tell the owners of the other stage amps to turn the f&*$ down.
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Todd L. Greene, Codger-in-training
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earlounge
229 posts
Dec 09, 2010
7:17 AM
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@harpdude61... your question has got me thinking too, and I know I'll be experimenting when I get home.
A cheap and easy answer for a personal in ear monitor system would be a small mixer. Mixers almost always have a headphone out which would bypass all the intriguing but complicated stuff 5F6H has mentioned. I do not own a DT but if it has a line out then it most definitely can run into a mixer. Run your headphones off of that mixer and use one side of your headphones so you can still hear the band.
I can't wait to try this with a mic on my Epi Jr! I might start going to the local open mic again.
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MrVerylongusername
1401 posts
Dec 09, 2010
7:26 AM
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remember though: if you are fronting the band, or sing backup into a vocal mic, pointing the amp at your head is the same as pointing it at the vocal mic. If that's the situation, fire the amp laterally across the stage so it hits the vocal mics off-axis. I can't comment on this specific amp, but even with the twin speakers, amps like these tend to have a pronounced beam of sound.
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HarpNinja
814 posts
Dec 09, 2010
7:31 AM
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I keep the amp no a side and step in front of it when I play harmonica.
A mixer would work, along with in ear monitors, but this would be way cheaper....http://accessories.musiciansfriend.com/product/Musician%27s-Gear-Deluxe-Amp-Stand?sku=451065&src=3WFRWXX&ZYXSEM=0&CAWELAID=73933383
Personally, if I am going to use a monitor or something other than the amp to hear myself, I'd rather just use a pedal into the PA. Less to carry and worry about.
I am strongly considering not using an amp with my band and using the board/monitor when I run my own sound.
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Amp for Harp Blog
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5F6H
430 posts
Dec 09, 2010
7:39 AM
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Earlounge, yes the mixer would be a very convenient & guaranteed way of getting the "line out" signal thru the cans, but if the signal voltage at the jack is appropriate & we have a means of attenuation, what could be simpler than just plugging the phones into the line out?
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MrVerylongusername
1402 posts
Dec 09, 2010
7:46 AM
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Drop the mic, voltage spike, kick the spring reverb, unexpected feedback.
Bang! there goes your eardrum.
I use pro IEMs. I wouldn't put anything in or on my ear unless I knew it had a built in limiter for those unexpected (and all too common) on stage mishaps.
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earlounge
230 posts
Dec 09, 2010
8:04 AM
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@5F6H... yeah man that would be awesome to just plug right in... idk why all amps don't have a headphone out right on them.
I see 3 problems with plugging directly into the DI.
1. Voltage (you seem to know how to check this)
2. Volume control (headphones will need this)
3. You will no longer have a direct out if your headphones are plugged in the DI.
If using the DI for the PA is never needed then your suggestion would be a good option.
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walterharp
500 posts
Dec 09, 2010
9:38 AM
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I second Todd's suggestion..but I use Alpine Party plug ear plugs. I can hear myself fine even when the band gets loud because of the sound conduction through my jaw. I can even hear without any amplification. Ever notice how a singer who is having problems hearing themselves in a band mix puts plugs one ear? When volumes come up, you can hear everything else the band is playing clearer than you would otherwise cause at that volume your ears are simply overloaded. This style plug can be re-used and does not deaden external sounds as much as the foamies. Only $15 a pair
If you have a double trouble at full volume, it is certainly loud enough that earplugs would not hurt
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Barry C.
76 posts
Dec 10, 2010
9:08 AM
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Mike - does the amp in front of you cause feedback issues as compared to behind you? I would assume that if in front you've got it low on the ground as a monitor would be positioned?
PS - I wear 2 earplugs which help me hear myself better and fend off going deaf! Took some real getting used too but now very comfortable with them. I have Er25 customs.
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~Banned in Boston!
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HarpNinja
820 posts
Dec 10, 2010
9:11 AM
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I've never had an issue. Especially with small amps. I did that all the time with a SF Champ and DT. I do that now with my VHT, which hasn't caused FB.
The only time I get FB is when I run effects. The Kinder keeps that from being an issue. Usually it is the auto-wah...most the others are a non-issue
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Amp for Harp Blog
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HarpNinja
821 posts
Dec 10, 2010
9:11 AM
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I've never had an issue. Especially with small amps. I did that all the time with a SF Champ and DT. I do that now with my VHT, which hasn't caused FB.
The only time I get FB is when I run effects. The Kinder keeps that from being an issue. Usually it is the auto-wah...most the others are a non-issue
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Amp for Harp Blog
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harpdude61
532 posts
Dec 10, 2010
9:26 AM
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Lots here to absorb. Thanks!
I do wear foamies sometimes. My problem is that if I do not hear myself well, I play too hard. Many of you pros have advised to play softly and let the amp do the work, which is how I practice. Technique does go when playing too hard.
I want to try the Alpine plugs.
My Ipod plugs are foam and fit deeply in the ear. I thought it would be great to wear one if I could do it safely out of the amp.
These Ipod plugs are great for mowing or noisy work. I wear a set of the muff protectors over the top. I enjoy my music at a safe volume, yet can barely hear the hum of the mower.
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Greg Heumann
932 posts
Dec 11, 2010
10:52 PM
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I'm chiming in late - been very busy and had little time at the computer.
Joe and Mike are right - the easy and cheap solution is to get the amp up to hear it better. Once you reach the feedback threshold with that rig, however, there ain't much you can do. The Double Trouble is a great amp but it is a "mid-size" amp. There is only so much you can expect from it.
I went through exactly the same thought process several years ago and spent quite a bit of time trying to come up with a good in-ear monitoring system. Ultimately I failed. It turns out to be really difficult (but not impossible) to overcome everything working against you.
First, when you're playing an instrument like a harp or sax that actually creates sound in your oral cavity (or singing), it is going to screw up your perception - just like plugging your ears and speaking. I don't know about others, but to me hearing the rest of the band is critical to playing well. Plugs in your ears are going to radically change the perceived volume and tone of others vs. yourself - so you want in-ear monitors to get high fidelity sound.
Commercial in-ear monitor systems can be excellent, but only if you have a sound guy who can adjust the monitor levels and mix for you during performance - otherwise you will have no sense of how loud you are relative to others.
Not having the luxury of a full time sound guy, my solution evolved away from using a direct line from my amp, to putting a mic out in the audience, run that into a pre-amp and then use THAT signal into my ears - that way I could hear how I was in the mix that the audience heard. I had a belt-worn volume adjustment, battery powered headphone amp, etc. I even built one that was two-channel, so I could personally mix my amp sound with the audience sound. It ALMOST worked, but not well enough. In the end it was a giant pain in the ass, too complicated, too hard to get the mic out in the audience in a good spot, etc. And WAY too many wires.
What you really need is a wireless in-ear monitor system, AND a sound guy who can control the mix and level into your ears. AND for good sound isolation you're going to have an audiologist make molds of your ears, and then have custom earplugs made. Expect to pay well over a grand for the gear you'll need.
If you don't have a sound guy, you MUST hear your amp. Tilt it back, get it up on a chair (at the expense of some bass, by the way- so on a chair in a corner is a good way to get some back). If that isn't enough, you need a bigger amp. An HG50, SJ410 or Avenger, Harp King - BIG, with LOTS of speaker. Sorry, but there are times when that is the ONLY solution. )If its YOUR band, then you guys need to play quieter. If its a jam situation or you just have band members who don't give a shit about you, you're SOL. Bigger amp.
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/Greg
Last Edited by on Dec 11, 2010 10:58 PM
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harpdude61
536 posts
Dec 12, 2010
9:24 AM
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Thanks Greg. Nothing is ever as simple as it seems. I'm sure if I ever join a band I will invest in a monitor.
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7LimitJI
232 posts
Dec 12, 2010
9:54 AM
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I have a 0.5 watt tube amp with a 10" speaker.
I fitted a standard speaker pole top hat mount in it.
I have gigged with the band (normally use a Bassman) with the amp on a speaker stand, at head height,directly behind me. Mic'ed up to the PA. (You can use your line out, if needed)
I could hear myself perfectly like this with no harp coming through the vocal monitors.
When solo'ing I could lean in towards it to hear more.
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The Pentatonics Myspace
Youtube
Due to cutbacks,the light at the end of the tunnel has been switched off.
Last Edited by on Dec 12, 2010 9:55 AM
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Greg Heumann
939 posts
Dec 12, 2010
2:54 PM
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7Limit - that's a great setup. That would be optimal for using a small amp on stage.
And semi-related: I have been in too-loud situations - over 105dB in a small bar, with the Avenger or Super Sonny. If I set it up for max volume and blow even a little when nobody else is playing, it will make everyone in the bar jump and cringe. It sounds so freakin' loud. But then I've had people tell me they had trouble hearing my solo. How loud your amp sounds is totally a function of how loud everything else is relative to it.
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/Greg
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