I have been a member here for a while and constantly use this forum as a guide on my journey... I am currently working with Dave Barrera site along side the lessons here. Now my dilemma , I am starting to really love the tone that a TB player can seem to get. I gave been paying as a pucker player for a year now and am really considering jumping in head first and learning to TB almost exclusively .. Just digging for some thoughts and/ or suggestions thanks all
I started out pursing and now I use both. Why limit yurself to one? You can also get the same great tone either way. This horse is barely alive. Been beaten many times on this forum. Check the search feature. Good Luck!
Hi Jambo, I moved over to tongue blocking about five years ago and haven't looked back. Three years ago I started working on overbends and found they came easily using TB.
I believe my tone improved using TB and adding in the extra colour the slaps and chords bring has meant I've found no reason to change back.
My biggest challenge was getting the high end bends, really frustrating to be honest. 5 minutes a day for weeks with no progress then one day without thinking about it one popped out.
Yes, I've just revisited Adams videos again. I think I'll need six visits for each one before it all sinks in well.
I've been tongue blocking for some time now but haven't got anywhere near the "projection" that Adam can manage.
One thing that I did notice was that Adam didn't mention anything about tongue blocking and playing single notes. He mainly talks about playing four holes and blocking the middle two.
Do many people actually TB and play single notes because I had it in my mind that that is what I should be aiming for and find it difficult? I'd be a lot happier puckering the single notes where I can.
I dont see how you guys do the puckering, I tried it and felt like I was kissing a fish. Maybe I should give it a go again ---------- Various Musical ramblings http://www.youtube.com/user/sjeter61?feature=mhum
steve j...pucker is not a good word..mouth open as wide as possible with lips still touching harp, big open mouth and throat and harp buried very deep in mouth...
Shoulders..I am impressed. Can you overdraw 9 and 10 and bend them up 1/2 step while tongue blocking?
I don't think Adam plays single notes tongue blocking to the side. I myself tongue block only for splits.
@harpdude: Actually, I do sometimes play single notes on the right side with TB. I talk about this in the recent pair of videos. I'll play 6 b, for example, and block 345. Not often, but sometimes, and almost always on the blow notes. Very occasionally I'll move from 4 b, TB'd, to 3d, TB'd, with a half-step bend on the 3d. But I almost always play 2d LP, not TB. And I almost never bend notes TB, as I mention in my video.
Hi Harpdude, just dug the tuner out and under laboratory conditions I can get the overdraw to bend.
Easiest was a Joe Spiers Key of G marine band. Draw 10 bends to a A note before both the Reed and I choke.
At the moment my effort is going into playing the overblows in tune and reducing the pause before they sound. Only very short moment of silence but it really throws me.
Its all good honest fun. I'm practicing 'little sunflower' and the overblows play quite a big part.
Some things can only be played TBing and some things can only be played LPing. So, a complete player needs to be able to do both, IMHO.
The thing about TBing and tone is that TBing FORCES the player to do certain things that generate quality tone. BUT, if a player who primarily plays LPing makes a conscious effort to do those things while LPing, substantially equivalent quality of tone can be achieved.
I recognize that opinions vary about this, but I do not consider either TBing or LPing to produce inherently superior tone. In my experience, substantially equivalent tone can be achieved with either embouchure if you do it right.
@shoulders: I address your question/challenge in my pair of videos. TBers can't, to my knowledge, double- and triple-tongue on the roof of their mouths--making repeated 1/16th note 4 draws, for example, as Magic Dick does in his solo on "Pack Fair and Square" in THE J. GEILS BAND LIVE FULL HOUSE. TBers can't do that because their tongue is doing something else: blocking 2 or 3 lower holes. They may be able to approximate that sound in some other way, but of course that what LPers can do with some TB techniques--again, as I show in my pair of videos.
At no level was I throwing a gaunlet down for a challenge. Just to clear that up........
Yes the Tongue bouncing of the roof of the mouth seems out of reach but the rasping r sound is possible (faked?) Its a bit late for me to work (a little drunk) out how I get the rrrrrrr sound but I'll see tomorrow.
Adam what video is it where you cover the sixteenth notes? Still not looking for a competition. .....
I am the chap at the Northampton blues week a few years ago who pestered you Endlessly to cover overblows. sincere thanks, three years on and I'm loving it
Thanks all..... I've decided after watching Adams videos that I will continue on adding some needed TB methods to achieve the tone I'm hearing... It would be silly and alot of work to scrap one for the other.. Thanks so much for all the advice.. Long live MBH!
I have been playing with all three embouchures ( the third being U blocking)for around 26 years.
I high note blow bend while tongue blocking but have never been able to jam in the highest octave at what I consider a pro level. I can jam at a pro level on holes 7 thru 10 either while puckering or U blocking but I find U blocking to be a far nicer tone and easier, especially on hole 10.
I can jam at a pro level on holes 1 thru 6 100% tongue blocking out of either side of my mouth. However, I believe puckering is better for faster runs. I hear very little difference acoustically between single notes puckered and TB'd when playing my fattest blues tone, but amped I do think TB has a slightly fatter and mellower tone. Certainly not enough to warrant choosing tbing if no slaps or double stops are involved.
If I do not want a bluesy fat tone, puckering is far superior to tongue blocking.
If I want slaps and double stops, TB is the way, with the exception of some puckered slaps on hole 2 draw.
I can only overblow/draw using the puckered style on holes 1, 4, 5, 6 and 7. I can only overdraw on holes 9 and 10 U blocking.
I occasionally embouchure switch for ease of playing, for example, I may TB 4 blow and switch to a pucker on 2 draw. Barely any movement.
I am nearly 100% U blocking on chromatic except when slapping or doing double stops, I do those TBing.
I recommend learning all three techniques, getting as good as you can on all three and choosing what works for you in each specific situation. Michael Rubin Michaelrubinharmonica.com
Wow, Michael, loads to absorb in your post. Cheers.
Is U Blocking available to everybody? I thought it was a genetic ability not everyone had.
As you utilize all three methods I'm really interested on your take.........fast runs are lip pursed. I've heard this before and most contemporary players seem the lip purse. Arrrgh, I don't want have to take on lip pursing.
kudzurunner.....Two Great videos and I am glad I watched. I thought you TB'd splits only. I caught your video early on about 2 hole draw and slightly opening to catch both or either holes lip pursing. It is a major part of my playing as you can see in the Grass in Blues vid I posted a couple days ago.
hvyj...right on as always
Shoulders..We should Skype sometime and compare. You might be able to overdraw TBing, but can you make it fat, unrecognizable to be an OB, move around on the note cleanly, and play with a powerful vibrato. Can you overdraw the 10 hole on a high F harp?
I've been working on a technique to play a clean OB and leaking over to a hole on either side. Sounds great in 2nd position on slow nasty blues to play a 6 OB and leak over to catch the 7 at the IV chord. Gives you the root and the flat 7.
I'm not promoting or defending just answering Shoulders question.
BTW..I am happy with how my TBing is progressing. The bends are bending but the tone is weak and thin compared to my LPing tone.
Thanks harpdude, I would like to hook up over Skype and I assure you I'm in for the learning, no attitude and definitely not cutting heads.... if that's the right term.
I can get the draw 10 to overdraw on a F (when you say high I'm guessing not low) again thanks to Joe Spiers. But and this is a big but as yet they are isolated notes, not smooth and full and still sound out of place.
Quick question. Do LP find overdraw on F harp draw hole 10 to be an easily acsesible note? I'm not being funny I just know that I haven't worked at these notes and am not sure its a TB issue.
I would love to hook up over Skype and hear the stuff you're doing.
Where are you? I'm in the UK so Greenwich mean time.
I have been tongue blocking more and more. What I like about it is how it lends itself to a number of techniques that would be more difficult lip pursed (imo). But then again when I do Irish-fiddle type speed playing I'm definitely only doing lip pursing. When I play I also think jazz sounds better mostly lip pursed (also imo). I think it's quite advantageous to be able to play everything tongue blocked & lip pursed and whatever feels right at the moment, do that.
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~Ryan
"I play the harmonica. The only way I can play is if I get my car going really fast, and stick it out the window." - Stephen Wright
Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
SHoulders..I'm in Tennessee....send me a note at harpdude61@yahoo
Chris says my custom harps are 98% complete so I am excited to see how much easier things become.
I play now on Golden Melodys I gapped myself. The 10 OD on an F harp is probably not very useful, but I figured if I could get it, it might be a great muscle development tool and the 10 ODs on the lower harps would be easier. Kinda like the doughnut on the baseball bat thinking.
In the video below you can hear the 6 OB at 51 seconds and a couple of times as passing notes right after. At 1:20 you hear the 7 OD and again right after. At 1:30 you hear the 10 OD as a passing note.
I'm just not sure the style I'm playing here is good for TBing....but please prove me wrong.
@MichaelR: I'm glad you've walked into this bar, pardner. You're an empiricist and impurist in the matter of technique, as am I. If it works, or can be bent into shape so that it works, use it. That's my motto. An individuated sound is likely to come from some weird, idiosyncratic combination of techniques that feels right to one particular player.
"@Shoulders. How about the rasping sound you get when you roll your R's very quickly. You'd have a job doing that TB'd"
I have heard Steve Guyger do it tongue blocked,using the "growl" method-I think it sounds even better usng this method.
Last Edited by on Dec 01, 2010 5:27 AM
Hi my names Anthony and i'm a Tongue Blocking convert.
(Phew!!there i've said it, and i feel like a new man for saying it)
I've been lip pursing for the last four years throwing in the odd octave and that was it. I didn't really have an opinion on TBing either way, until i discovered Dave Baretts website. I soon realised the big sound i was looking for came in the shape of Tongue slaps and pulls.
Once i realised it was a techniqe i was going to have to learn IF i wanted to play the Blues i got really depressed. All of a sudden i didnt feel like a proper BluesHarp player, i felt there was something missing from my playing in a way because i was a full time lip purser, and all the Blues players i was listening to at the time(Gary Primich, John Nemeth etc..)were all TBing, once i had that Eurika!! moment i could here TBing in everything i listened to and just couldn't ignore it.
I basically had to re learn to play the harp and my muscle memory wasn't going to let me convert that easy either. It's taken a good 6 month's of practice but i'm getting there.
I mainly TB now, it's made a massive difference to my tone and adds so much colour and fullness to my playing. I'm still struggling to get all the bends perfectly so i do go back forth between Pursing and TBing.
I'm really happy i can Lip Purse AND Tongue block now and i'm hopefully managing to intertwine them in my playing pretty well.
There's a time and place for TBing and for Lip Pursing and i think any decent Harp player should be able to do both:o) ----------
This thread got me thinking, I realized last nite that for straight harp , when I am playing single notes , it seems like I put the tip of my tongue right under the hole I am playing, Is this U blocking? I thought I played everything TB maybe I dont ,, ---------- Various Musical ramblings http://www.youtube.com/user/sjeter61?feature=mhum
Steve J. and Shoulders, What Steve is doing is a bastardized version of U blocking which is essentially what I do as well. Just put the tip of the tongue under the note you are playing on the bottom cover plate and it will help guide and center the air. I called it tongue guiding for a while, so as to separate from the more intense necessarily genetically predisposed U blockers who truly curl their tongue into a U, blocking out the surrounding holes. Then I got an informal lesson from Paul Davies, who is one of the best U blockers in the world. He has a plastic harp with no guts in it so you can see what his tongue does. He also did not curl very much and he is one of the best at the technique ever! I do believe Cara Cooke truly U blocks. I taught the Kerrville Folk Festival HArmonica Workshop with Norton Buffalo and Rob Roy Parnell, the third teacher, and the three of us took a picture us sans harps with our mouths open and our tongues in the three embouchure positions. It's on my wall, I do not know if I ever got it onto my computer or I would send it. In any case, Norton's tongue was very curled in that photo.
To Adam: Thanks for the kind words! Thanks for the forum! Michael Rubin Michaelrubinharmonica.com
Last Edited by on Dec 01, 2010 8:33 AM
Michael R. I've never tried U-blocking. Is it something anyone can learn? and you can overbend U-blocking? Please compare getting a big full tone on a single hole using all 3 techniques. I fully agree with hvyj that pursers can get as good a tone as TBers or UBers. I think it is very cool that you do all three.
Harpdude, I believe anyone can learn the tongue guiding version of U blocking where you put your tongue directly under the desired hole on the harp-s bottom cover plate. Not everyone can learn the method of curling their tongue to block the surrounding holes. That is genetic.
I am a big believer in U blocking the high notes and I push it on my students. Many complain within the first minute that it is uncomfortable and not for them. Then they tend to pursue puckering the high notes. A year later they are struggling with the high notes, I again push U blocking and they again brush it off. Invariably, my students who spend real practice time (which varies from person to person) on U blocking wind up being able to jam using the high notes.
On the other hand, I can jam at a pro level using the high notes while puckering and surely, Dennis Gruenling, among others, can do it while TBing. I am a believer that you can smooth out any technique with enough practice. Michael Rubin Michaelrubinharmonica.com
Michael...I find it interesting that you can overdraw 9 and 10 UBing but not LPing. I play a lot of first position blues using the high end of the harp lip pursing and it goes over well. I try not to squeeze to a kiss when blow bending. I bend with my throat and shape of my mouth....Great thread guys! Lots to learn.
OP says "It would be silly and alot of work to scrap one for the other".
On the contrary, I sympathize with Ant138 on this one. Unless you go all out and really commit to TB full time for a while, you will not really learn how to do it correctly. And you will not be able to claim that you can "do both", or really be sure that whatever hybrid situation you end up with is optimal for you.
I've been TBing exclusively for about a year now. It took me about 6 months to relearn all the bends and get good tone on them (and to overblow to the extent I could LPing, which isn't great yet). Now I'm loving the TB since it makes it more natural to throw in splits/octaves, slaps, pulls, and octave jumps (tongue switches). I am missing the tongue (ta) articulations available to LP, but I'm substituting throat articulations.
Maybe someday, I'll end up with a hybrid technique, but for now I'm sticking with the TB. I'd say if you've got the time to experiment, go at it in full rather than half measures.
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Last Edited by on Dec 01, 2010 10:59 AM
@Shoulders: "What areas of playing the instrument can only be done by LP? ?? So far I've not come across any aspects that can't be done TB."
Well, there's all sorts of percussive effects and articulations one can get if the tongue is not on the harp. Certainly, some of these can be approximated while TBing, but some of this stuff needs to have the tongue moving free in the mouth to play. Not a big part of my style of play, but it's stuff a lot of harp players do. Madcat Ruth comes to mind as an example.
Now, using the tongue to articulate separation between notes (either by making a "tuh" or rolling the R's) CANNOT be done if one is TBing. Personally, I tend to most often articulate separation between notes by starting and stopping my diaphragm without using my tongue anyway. I think it's usually faster and generates a fatter and more even attack. BUT, to get an appropriately staccato attack when playing with horns, and sometimes in order to play complicated lines at fast tempo that have a lot of breath shifts, it's pretty much impossible to do without using the tongue to help articulate the separation between notes.
Btw, although I consider myself a mixed embouchure player, I primarily LP. However, I don't use my tongue to play draw bends. I bend with my throat. So, (unless I'm playing octaves or other split intervals which require me to TB) I am able to keep my tongue on the floor of my mouth most of the time when I'm playing. Combining this with a large air aperture, deep embouchure, dropped and relaxed jaw, and a tilt of the harp to get the holes of the harmonica in my mouth past my front teeth, I think I get the same sort of large unobstructed oral resonance chamber as can be achieved TBing. Of course, TBing allows the player to get the harp in the mouth past the top AND bottom teeth. BUT, the tongue is high in the mouth when TBing because it's on the harp, not on the floor of the mouth. Taking all of these factors into account, FWIW, I think a player can get pretty much equivalent TONE either way if it's done properly, although there are certain playing techniques that can only be achieved TBing (and a few that can only be achieved LPing).
Last Edited by on Dec 02, 2010 7:08 AM
@hvyi "Now, using the tongue to articulate separation between notes (either by making a "tuh" or rolling the R's) CANNOT be done if one is TBing."
Oh, but they CAN! Try this without a harp in your mouth. Rest the tip of your tongue against the back of your lower front teeth. Hold it there and say "tuh"
Another example grip the tip of your tongue between your front teeth and say "tuh"
These are examples to show you can articulate whilst your tongue is steady at the front of your mouth.
