I've discovered recently that for me, the best way to learn what my harp heroes were thinking when they play is to try to learn their flagship instrumental songs. I'm not saying that it's easy but it's worth trying, you know, Rick Estrin's Gettin out of town, William Clarke's Blowin the family jewels, James Cotton's Creeper.. these kind of songs... I've found that if you manage to get about 80% of the song it will help a lot when you move to their easier songs later because in these song they'll put a lot of their characters and tricks into it, this is really helpful to me. Instead of spending a lot of time learning tons of their easier songs, start with the tough ones to learn just what they think then move to easier songs and then come back again and polish the tough ones ! What about yours ? Learning schemes to share ?
Good subject, silpakorn. For me, two come immediately to mind: Little Walter's Off The Wall and Blue Light. Playing the notes was one thing, but getting the feeling and dynamics down was a totally different adventure in itself. It took several times listening to them fairly loud on good speakers, with no interruptions, to pick up on the subtle nuances in his playing, how he was using the mic and amp, and discerning that through the board-added slapback delay effects. I'm not one who really cares about learning/playing exact copies of anyone else's songs;I like to put my own spin on things-but those two tunes moved me to capture as much as what LW did as I possibly could. ----------
Todd L. Greene, Codger-in-training
Last Edited by on Nov 23, 2010 10:07 AM
The other thing to do is not only what Todd is saying, which is something VERY important to do, and something the average player often doesn't bother to do at all, but also listen to all of their influences as well, and many of their influences were NOT harp players at all, and a big problem harp players tend to have is that listen ONLY to other harp players and all fo their heroes listened to instruments OTHER than the harmonica, learning and ADAPTING things from other instruments and making them work for the instrument. LW got tons of stuff from NOT listening to other harp players, but from tons of big band/jump/r&b/swing horn players, especially sax players and if you give some hard listening to that, you will find tons of that being played and his approach was basically turning the harmonica into a sax because he actually wanted to play one but couldn't afford it and so not just playing similar phrases, but also how they used varied tone control, attack and dynamics.
In listening to several different versions of The Creeper, if you did your homework, Cotton throws in things like Lionel Hampton's Flying Home and in his first version on Verve, Count Basie's One O'Clock Jump.
Most harp players don't take enough time to learn to be much more observant of things and be more anal about details, and that also means that one has to develop someting most harp players NEVER do, and that's being musically diciplined and those that don't develop it, usually are their own worst enemy and often have a much harder time learning things. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
combining elements of previous posts, i've been working on a couple of instrumental songs by Hot Tuna, Water Song and Embryonic Journey. no harp on them, but they've always been favorites of mine. and Jorma's guitar playing is sufficiently intricate that it's good for expanding my dexterity and breaking some of my more harpish habits.
never hurts to have a good instrumental in your back pocket, should the situation arise.
Rick Estrin's tune is pure Sonny Boy II. It sounds a lot like a piano boogie woogie played on a harp.
I've heard Jimmy Walker, the legendary piano player from Chicago, play something similar. That makes me wonder if it originates from Roosevelt Sykes or Memphis Slim.
I wouldn't be surprised if Sonny Boy II adapted the groove to the harp. Estrin plays the Sonny Boy II stuff quite well.
One more thing, if you want to learn how a player thinks, you're going to have to dig deep into the popular music of the time.
That doesn't only mean horn players. It means piano players and guitar players. In addition to listening to guys like Louis Jordan, it also means listening to guys like Sykes, Memphis Slim, Big Maceo, Big Bill Broonzy and Tampa Red. Those guys were hugely influential on the guys that came up in postwar Chicago.
@ Joe, thanks a lot for the information. Actually that's the main reason that I spend time on the internet ( google, wikipedia, forums, youtube and downloading stuffs ) because I'm so far from those hystories and I'm trying to get that feeling as much as I can.
I was talkin to paul oscher when i was at Amandas roller coaster and we were talking about little walter. he said it wasn't the sax that LW was copying, it was the trumpet. just thought you might find that interesting. i guess thats why i dig Louis Armstrong more than well i cant think of any sax players right now.
Can people name some horn players I should be listening to. I've been listening to alot of Louis Jordan recently (someone on this forum ((maybe Bob))said that he was an influence of LW's) and Adam has mentioned Hank Crawford. What other players are there?
For sax players, many of them are jump players: Red Prysock Illinois Jacquet Coleman Hawkins Lester Young Charlie Parker Joe Houston Willis Gator Tail Jackson Noble Watts Hal Singer Sam The Man Taylor Junior Walker Eddie Shaw Louis Jordan Plas Johnson Eddie Cleanhead Vinson (also as a vocalist as well) Hank Crawford David Fathead Newman Sam Butera
.......and that's a short list as there's some I've probably forgotten to mention.
Some guitar players worth listening to as well:
T-Bone Walker Tiny Grimes Bill Jennings Bill Butler Mickey Baker Charlie Christian
One of the things all of those guitar players have in common is that they often adapted horn lines into guitar lines and you can learn a lot from them.
Louis Jordan was THE most highly influential black musician in his day, not only influencing black musicians from blues/swing/jazz, but also quite a few white musicians as well in his day. Louis Prima was essentially a white Louis Jordan and Louis' influence is so huge and can't be taken for granted. JUst listening to his solo on Caledonia, you can clearly hear stuff LW plays and got from.
In his prime years from the lat 30's to the mid 50's, he was THE biggest black music star (especially among black audiences) of his time, and today's equivalent in how big he was would be somebody like a Michael Jackson.
Also worth listening is from hep-harmony groups and the best known of them all and the most famous among white auidences are the Mills Brothers, but for black audiences, the REAL big one was the Delta Rhythm Boys and many bluesmen, including guys like Howlin' Wolf, were HUGELY influenced by them. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
TBone and Charlie Christian were best friends and running buddies and that's what both of them were doing at the time. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Another sax player to throw in the mix harp players should listen and learn from is Big Jay McNeely. I'd also throw in 3 trumpet players well worth listen and learning from:
Louis Armstrong (his Hot Fives & Sevens recordings are vital listening and is essentially a textbook in the art of improvising and his influence on a wide variety of musicians of different genres is till pretty huge and LW was certainly influenced by him).
Roy Eldrige (the head he plays on Gene Krupa's Let Me Off Uptown is what LW is playing more uptempo in the opening 12 bars of Fast Large One that he plays on a chromatic)
Cootie Williams is another one as well. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
I'm suprised nobody has mentioned Clifford Brown. In my opinion, he's the best trumpet player (as far as jazz goes) there ever was. Some will probably disagree, but I think nobody else had the degree of long term stream of conciousness thinking that he had while improvising. Such a good balance between musicality and technique.
Also add Stanley Turrentine, who also played on some of Lowell Fulson's recordings, most noteably Reconsider Baby.
One thing that should also be stressed because it's extremely important is not just to do what the average player tends to do, and that's listening ONLY to solos and nothing else, which is a GIGANTIC mistake too many harp players tend to make ALL THE TIME, but also listening to how they 'comp, not just licks, but the lines usually known as horn charts. The stuff that those guys did in the 30's and 40's in big band jazz/swing/jump bands later were translated in the 50's into classic rhythm guitar lines thru adapting them to the guitar with combinations of chording, double stops, and single notes.
Now why do this?? For one, to avoid the same cliches and the "riffing idiot" mentality too often adopted by the average harp player and you also learn how to comp in situations that normally harmonica wouldn't be in. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
now I wish that I could be in the distance close enough so I could go take a lesson with you Bob, I always enjoy reading and learn a lot from your post here. It's a shame I'm half way around the world from you : (
Last Edited by on Nov 29, 2010 8:43 AM
