ridge
116 posts
Nov 13, 2010
1:52 PM
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I've been playing this pentatonic scale forever, but never knew what position I was in. On a C harp, I'm starting on 3 draw bent a whole step -- the note 'A'.
Scale goes: 3" +4 -4 4ob +5 +6 -6
Next octave up: -6 +7 -8 +8' +8 +9 -10
The reason I thought of this was because I was listening to GreyOwl playing over the Thrill is Gone and I picked up my C harp. He was playing a D harp in 2nd pos... so if I count up playing a G harp would be 3rd and using a C harp is 4th. Is this really 4th?
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harpdude61
466 posts
Nov 13, 2010
2:20 PM
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Yep...4th position..but it is the blues scale. I like wailing on the 4 OB and bending it up.
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hvyj
828 posts
Nov 13, 2010
2:41 PM
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Yep. 4th position. Gives you the natural minor scale (flat 3d, flat 6th, flat 7th) without having to bend or OB except for the full step 3 draw bend you need in order to get root in the lower register.
Now, you can also get HARMONIC minor (flat 3d, flat 6th, MAJOR 7th) in 4th position by bending 3 draw 3 half steps for major 7, and bending 6 draw a half step for major 7. Very useful position for minor key playing.
John Coletrane's "Equinox"is a haunting minor key blues that lays out perfectly in 4th position. "Afro Blue" can be played easily in 4th position. Bob Dylan played the original "All Along the Watchtower" in 4th position.
Btw, the breath pattern for the minor pentatonic scale in 4th position is the same breath pattern as the major pentatonic scale in 1st position. Identical.
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chromaticblues
281 posts
Nov 13, 2010
8:20 PM
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Yes what hvyj is talking about is what is known as the relative minor. Every major scale has a relative minor. The thing with playing beyond 3rd position is it works great on harps ET tuned. JI tuned harps work best in the first three positions. IN 1996 when I started playing SP 20's I stoped playing beyond 3rd and concentrated more on blues techniques. Beyond third position ji tuning just sounds wrong.
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joeleebush
129 posts
Nov 13, 2010
8:50 PM
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To chromaticblues man:
Man, you got me all confused now.
What is ET tuning and what is ji tuning?
When I play in plain old 3rd position (George Smith "telephone blues" for example) on the hoodoo harps you've worked on for me...am I in this ji tuning or the ET tuning.
I am totally confused.
Can you un-confuse me.
Regards,
Me
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chromaticblues
282 posts
Nov 13, 2010
9:00 PM
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Joe lee Your in the Hoo Doo zone!
It works perfect in 1st thru 3rd!
The Hoo Doo tuning is similiar to Just intonation.
All that means is it is tuned to play the blues!
Last Edited by on Nov 13, 2010 9:27 PM
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harpdude61
470 posts
Nov 14, 2010
8:15 AM
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I agree with you guys about the minors and such, but the two octave scale that Ridge posted is the blues scale in 4th position.
I think a lot of blues players (including myself) play mostly blues in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.
I have found that learning the blues scale in 4th, 5th, and 6th positions adds different "sweet spots" in the blues scale.
4th position blues scale is all there on holes 6-10 with no overblows required....... 5th offers very useful octaves. 2-5 blow and 5-8 blow are root, while 3-6 blow and 6-9 blow offer the flat 3rd. Very useful for backing.........I'm still learning 6th and 12th but I'm sure they are useful in some way.
hvyj has posted a lot of good stuff that has been a huge help to me. As much as I love OBing I must admit that his position play and knowledge of scales make playing anything possible without OBs.
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hvyj
829 posts
Nov 14, 2010
2:51 PM
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@chromaticblues: If you are playing with a band, I think JI and compromise tuned harps sound out of tune no matter what position you are playing in. It's just a lot more obvious in positions above third. Personally, I only play ET harps.
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chromaticblues
285 posts
Nov 14, 2010
3:39 PM
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@ hvyj Yeah your sorta right. When I played in a rock band for over 10 years I played Lee Oskars just because of what you said( and in the eighties they were the best harp on the market) After that I played Sp 20's in a duo in Nashville for 2 1/2 years and we use to play some parts note for note and it worked very well! I'm a BLUES MUSICIAN and know how to make it work! If your playing in a band with people that aren't blues musicians or your not one yourself then it will sound funny. You have to play a certain way for it to work.
We all play it differently!
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ridge
117 posts
Nov 14, 2010
6:59 PM
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Everybody, thanks for the input. I'm going to try to delve into the relative minor stuff. I guess I can play more positions than I once thought... but I don't really have any licks in those positions, or at least, I haven't transferred existing licks I know into 4th. I basically just play pentatonic scales.
Harpdude, I second the kudos on hvyj, I favorited a post on modal playing that I'm still trying to understand.
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