|
Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Define 'Bark'...or 'Crunch'....?
Define 'Bark'...or 'Crunch'....?
Page:
1
Mojokane
135 posts
Nov 08, 2010
11:25 PM
|
Greetings!
Here's a dooozy for you guys.
First, can we all agree what these terms mean?
And possibly throw in a video, or sound clip of each.
I can try to describe each til my head blows up, but it's just as easy to upload an example.
So we all know where to go with the settings on a friends amp.
My personal opinion would be that they are almost the same. Rather, the bark refers to the attack, AND has crunch within also..
Distortion and tone is a delicate and subjective subject, eh?
I'll search for some samples..
My friend asked me this question moments ago.
He asked, "how can I get my SJ 'Cruncher' to bark?".
How can he adjust the settings for better mid range crunch or bark?
His tone is consistantly warmer, than I'd prefer. Not bad, but lacks attack, mid range bark, and the popular crunch trademark.
fyi..
I built him a killer mic, by all current harp mic modification standards.
The mic will achieve the characteristics above mentioned.
I know because I used it briefly (tested it out), before I let him take it. Truly a winner in all respects...I played it through a couple of my favorite amps.
The Kalamazoo Model One(EL84), through 2 X 12 alnicos.
Fantastic...MP can vouch for it.
Nothing short of heavenly bliss....lol!
And another home brew Admiral tube amp combo, (2) EL84's, 5y3, 12ax7, with a 1 X 12 Alnico smooth cone.
I installed a high output black CR, with lots of bottom end, mid range crunch, and sweet creamy titillating highs.
The mic is not the problem. Nor is the player.
So, if possible, can we keep this thread pertaining to the settings on the Sonny Jr Cruncher...or maybe a better amp, perhaps?
If I'm not mistaken, isn't the Cruncher named for that reason?
Help me, help him...please.
Last Edited by on Nov 08, 2010 11:50 PM
|
5F6H
362 posts
Nov 09, 2010
4:04 AM
|
"Bark" to me suggests a tighter, more dynamic sound, ...basically mids with a tight envelope. I would listen to the 3 draws on lower key harps & look for punch.
"Crunch" is not necessarily related, it's a separate thing. To me, it pertains more to the even order harmonics, or a "gainier" sound.
A point to note is that the Kalamazoo has no negative feedback loop, which makes for a tight, punchy response, you'll know better than me whether the home brew has one. The Cruncher has a NFB loop, but I would not recommend removing it (or modifying the amp circuit in any way as it will reduce resale value)...it will increase feedback & make the amp brittle.
First things I would try are to use a higher mu tube in the PI (v3 next to the 6L6s), try a 12AX7 with a lower mu tube like 12AY7 in V2, 5751/12AX7 in V1.
Possibly a tighter rectifier, like GZ34 or maybe even SS?
Low bias will increase "crunch", if the amp has the Phillips/Sylvania 6L6WGB these will run happily down to 13-15mA...maybe less?
Turn the mids up, keep the treble low (treble reduces crunch as it scoops the mids) don't bridge channels - this warms/fattens the tone, but can take the edge off "bark".
The amp won't sound quite how Gary intended it too, but it may get you closer to what you are aiming for. The amp will undoubtedly be more sensitive at the volume control, which your friend might find a drawback.
Remember too that a mic doesn't sound any particular way, it needs to be plugged into an amp, which actually turns the signal into airborne sound waves. So from amp to amp things will be different. Trying to make a 2x6L6 amp sound like a home brew EL84 amp, that might be different in any number of ways, might be a pointless exercise?
Last Edited by on Nov 09, 2010 4:06 AM
|
tmf714
329 posts
Nov 09, 2010
5:30 AM
|
Just call Sonny-he answers all questions about his amps,and will be more than happy to run through different set-ups over the phone. Gary wants all his customers to be happy-call him between 9-7 PM EASTERN STANDARD TIME. Does he have the manual the amp comes with?. Thomas Fiacco III
Last Edited by on Nov 09, 2010 5:30 AM
|
Greg Heumann
869 posts
Nov 09, 2010
8:52 AM
|
To me Crunch is definitely breakup - the Kalamazoo has crunch for sure. The Cruncher has crunch too; the Avenger has even more. Bark, to me, is when the upper mids leap out on an attack. The Cruncher will do this depending on tone settings - the Kalamazoo will not. Just my two cents. There ain't no dictionary definition for sure.
There are sound samples of the Kalamazoo on my web site if you need them.
----------
/Greg
|
Mojokane
136 posts
Nov 09, 2010
9:17 AM
|
A thousand thankyou's!!!
I referred him to Sonny. And your well informed replies are exactly what I wanted. Thanks alot.
|
Andrew
1229 posts
Nov 09, 2010
9:25 AM
|
Isn't bark produced by the harp?
e.g. my MB in A has a very mellow 2 draw, after gapping and embossing, but when I bend it down, it gets louder and harsher without a lot more embouchure control. I thought that was bark - when your harp starts to sound like a dog!
----------
Andrew,
gentleman of leisure,
noodler extraordinaire.
Last Edited by on Nov 09, 2010 9:26 AM
|
toddlgreene
2069 posts
Nov 09, 2010
9:30 AM
|
I would think that a 4-5 double stop draw, when played with a tight cup into a an amp that is being overdriven, is a good definition of 'bark'.
----------
Todd L. Greene, Codger-in-training
|
5F6H
363 posts
Nov 09, 2010
10:12 AM
|
@Andrew - "Isn't bark produced by the harp?", can be, but when relating to amp tone specifically, I guess we're more talking about the dynamic response from the amp itself (what happens to the tone/envolope post microphone), an amp set up for a very "greasy" tone, or a very smooth tone might not bark as much as an amp set up for a tight, dynamic sound with more mid content.
@Todd - Possibly, but if it's part of the amp character, it should be there on single notes too.
This is where the whole glossary gets a bit vague, because it is very perception driven (and we all have our own perception), but I tend to try and look at an amp's character as being something that is intrinsic to that amp, and apart from things like chord effects articulation. Obviously, an amp's character can change depending on tone settings and how hard it's driven, but to my mind, if those attributes are part of the intrinsic character, they will be present at moderate drive, not just dimed, and present in the mid portion/body of the note, not just part of articulation/tongue slaps etc.
An amp can be smooth & mid scooped (as opposed to crunchy/middy) in the body of a note and still have a high end crunch on chords/articulation...I tend to think of this as crispness & "scrunch" more than crunch, more of a dynamic quality & technique driven than "ever present"(perhaps I'm saying that crunch is less hi frequency than scrunch too)?
Whereas an amp set up with crunch, would tend to constantly have a slightly raspy/dry/fuzzy character.
|
toddlgreene
2070 posts
Nov 09, 2010
10:20 AM
|
We need better adjectives! It's so hard to relay what 'sound' sounds like to someone.
----------
Todd L. Greene, Codger-in-training
|
bluemoose
383 posts
Nov 09, 2010
2:32 PM
|
@5F6H I've been having this issue with my Cruncher as well. I'm liking the tone at lowish volumes with channels bridged, in on bright, bass 2 ish , mid 5-6, treble 6-7 (one of Sonny's suggestions) but yes it does lose bark at volume.
I'll try unbridged tonight and bump the mids, drop the treble. Don't need much bass with the Cruncher and my mic. (AKAI MC-15 with a boost circuit)
Haven't looked at tube swaps yet.
----------
MBH Webbrain
FerretCat Webbrain
Last Edited by on Nov 09, 2010 2:33 PM
|
Mojokane
137 posts
Nov 09, 2010
7:12 PM
|
It's a slippery slope...especially when there are different tastes of what is 'good', or 'desirable'. What we all consider good tone, can generally be found somewhere between Bob Dylan, and Little Walter.
I can relate to 5f6H, and Gregs response. And I lean toward Little Walters monster tone.
He had 'it'...lol!
5F6H's response was pretty technical, yet simple enough for the layman.
My friend can now try the many suggestions out on his amp.
I take heed. I can use some of the advice, too. It was waaay eloquently put forth by 5F6H. Thanks.
It is nice to have at your disposal. Like a bag of tricks to color you set of music.
That about nails it for me. I'll pass this on to my friend. Thanks again....everybody.
|
harpoon_man
5 posts
Nov 09, 2010
10:01 PM
|
I had the opportunity to play one of Greg H's Kalamazoo amps over the weekend (owned by a St. Louis-area buddy of mine). It sounded amazing. I noticed a lot of crunch, less bark, no idle hum, and impressively, zero feedback problems over the entire range of tone and volume. Made me want to throw my Champ out the window. Kudos, Greg!
-Rusty
|
Mojokane
138 posts
Nov 09, 2010
11:07 PM
|
yeah, i'd really like to turn my 74 Princeton, from a
6V6 to a 6L6, with a nice speaker upgrade, too.
That's gotta be cool! Any reviews out there? (as he
gets sucked back in to his thread..)
Regarding the Sonny JR Cruncher discussion,
I was hoping for someone to post a vid, or sound clip.
A live (recorded) example of an actual bark, and
crunch, in action.
Let's not forget, scrunch.
I really enjoyed your answers, and thankyou, again.
K
|
5F6H
364 posts
Nov 10, 2010
1:26 AM
|
@ Mojokane "yeah, i'd really like to turn my 74 Princeton, from a 6V6 to a 6L6, with a nice speaker upgrade, too.That's gotta be cool! Any reviews out there?" Don't put 6L6 in a Princeton, the power transformer won't take it & it'll fry. Even if it doesn't fry straight away, operating voltages will drop severely and power will go down, you'd really need a new power transformer. I'd stick with 6V6s.
|
5F6H
366 posts
Nov 10, 2010
3:25 AM
|
Bark - How about Big Walter with Johnny Shines, JOB sessions, Evening Sun/Evening Shuffle? The way 3 & 4 draws pop out. LW Key to The Highway & with Muddy on 19Yrs Old/Walkiing Through The Park? Jr Wells with Muddy on Standing Round Cryin'/Iodine in My Coffee?
Scrunch - LW with Muddy on Hoochie Coochie Man/She's So Pretty, Jan '54. A smooth body to the note but a crisp edge?
Crunch - LW Crazy Legs? Always a degree of rasp? Rod Piazza "Live @ BB Kings"
Papery - LW Rocker? Rod Piazza "Too Late Brother/Can't Get That Stuff No More/Sharp Harp"..."4811 Wadsworth (Blues for George)", a tighter sound than the diatonic tracks, but papery with an edge of crunch? Bill Clarke Goin' Steady (Tip of The Top)
Then there's something that's textured, a little smoother than papery, I want to call it "resiny", kind of reminds me of a violin bow, rounded but with some slightly "grainy" content - LW with Jimmy Rogers on "Chicago Bound".
Greasy, similar to above but more of a sag to it, a little more "liquid"? LW on Muddy's 40days/All Aboard/Just To Me With You/Don't Go No Farther. I'd also include the Masco MA17 type tone. Kim Wilson's "That's Life" album, a sweet, mid scooped tone, a little sag & grease?
An example of a middle of the road, simply a good amplified tone, not overly crunchy/raspy/papery & not quite smooth & totally scooped in the mids, might be Paul Butterfield's first album (PB Blues Band)?
Sounds can be complex & have aspects of more than one attribute, but these are just some examples that I can think of.
Last Edited by on Nov 11, 2010 4:52 AM
|
bluemoose
385 posts
Nov 10, 2010
8:49 AM
|
Tried playing bridged in bright and unbridged in normal
with less and more mids last night. Couldn't notice a huge difference just that I f%$$ing love my Cruncher.
----------
MBH Webbrain
FerretCat Webbrain
|
Tuckster
766 posts
Nov 10, 2010
8:56 AM
|
I tube down my amp to make life easier,but when I do that I definitely lose some bark. Does that make sense?
|
5F6H
367 posts
Nov 10, 2010
9:16 AM
|
It does to me, especially if it is the tube feeding the power tubes, whilst doing this can warm/sweeten the tone, whilst calming feedback, it can also drop attack/touch sensitivity, to my mind "bark" comes from that tighter dynamic you get with good sensitivity & dynamics.
It's swings & roundabouts, you have to weigh up the benefits with the side effects...
|
Post a Message
|
