Thanks guys. I like to see 'em dance...especially the drunk toothless guy that was there last night-dancing with any woman too nice to tell him no. It's a little neighborhood bar that always has food laid out. Real homey place. ----------
Honkin'-I think this was recorded on a Flip camera-I actually am impressed with them a bit more than the recordings I have seen & heard made with the Q3, and the flip seems to handle low-light video better.
I enjoy playing horn parts-I do quite a bit of that with this band. I get some 'blues harp time' as well, but I do much more playing with this band in non-traditonal harp roles.
I have a blues band in the works right now that will scratch the blues itch for me...killer guitarist, same drummer as other band, and we jammed with a guy from Florida who spent a year touring with Bryan Lee-it was a good fit, but he's a full-time musician. I don't know if we can keep him busy enough. ----------
I always find it kind of funny and ironic at the same time that so many harp players get freaked out when there's a horn player on the bandstand and harp polayers often get intimidated by them (I think part of it is that horn players tend to be a lot more together musicially than the average harp player is, especially in open jams), but many of the best and most influential harp players take stuff by the truckload from horns one who most certainly did was Little Walter as did William Clarke and many others as well. I certainly take tons of stuff from them, learning and then adapting them.
Whenever I'm doing a jump blues or even soul/funk sort of thing, the first thing I'm going for is the horn stuff, including how they use swells and dynamics, something EVERY harp player NEEDS to learn but too often never do.
At one time, I worked as a sideman in band that had 3 horns and so what I did was basically become part of the horn section and play all of thosse parts, including parts played in harmony, and doing this requires something the vast majority of the average player lacks BIG TIME, and that's very strict musical discipline and that also means getting your intonation and articulation down cold.
Whenever I'm on a bandstand together with my good buddy and great sax player Sax Gordon, that's basically what we're doing and we have a blast with that.
When a band has the groove tight and together, that's when you see people dancing, and when they're not dancing, 9 times out of 10, you're band is grooveless as they come.
BTW, the horn parts on this tune isn't particularly difficult to play at all and once you begin learn how to think more like a horn player rather than the usual harp player at the open jams, you've got it made. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Bob-Later that night I was joined onstage by a great local trumpeter-It was loads of fun, and we were trading licks back and forth, and I even harmonized on some of his riffs. I sent my band into a second-line rhythm in Bb to suit him, and we rolled it into a 1-4-5 later. We played one number in c#, and that was awkward for him, but he hung in there. I've played with several sax players, but I enjoyed this trumpet guy a lot more. I just wished we had him up earlier in the night when we still had a big crowd. ----------
For me, the acid test of intonation is when I am playing horn parts with horns.
Now, playing horn parts on the harp without horns is cool, BUT, I inevitably get scolded if I play over (behind) the vocals. So I've got to leave more space than a horn section would.
toddlgreene's band is apparently more laid back about such matters. But, as it has been explained to me, the harmonica is in the same range as the human voice and generally should not be playing when the vocalist is singing. This is not my rule--but it's a rule I that I have to live by in order to have opportunities to play.
I control the PA in our band, and volume levels, and I NEVER let myself(or anyone else) drown our singer out. I probably follow the rule you state most of the time, and do a more traditional comping role. I actually play more of a rhythm role the majority of the time, which is fun. Like Bob says, if all a player can do is normal fills, riffs, etc. as they would at a blues jam, this kind of playing will be a challenge. You're now moulding into the groove with the rest of the band, instead of being a soloist or strictly a 'lead' instrument.
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Todd L. Greene, Codger-in-training
Last Edited by on Nov 08, 2010 9:10 AM
Thanks, Stevej. Second position, D harp. This is the very first tune we played together as a band when we formed this past spring, and still a favorite to play. ----------
The big problem too many harp players have, ESPECIALLY in open jams is that their thinking of comping is doing nothing but non stop mindless riffing and with that approach and attitude, it's no wonder why the majority of harp players get looked down upon because what Tood is showing you as well as I have stated on many numerous occasions is doing things much more musically disciplined and, truth be told, the vast majority of harp players, especially in open jams, are FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR from that and I totally understand why musicians who play other instruments think of harp players as do s**t for musicianship because too often harp players knowingly or unknowingly fall into the trap of this negative stereotype bey the way they do things. Todd's last post says exactly what I'm saying.
If you're gonna be doing nothing short of being the stereypical riffing idiot that's usually seen in too many open jams, then you CLEARLY deserve to get dissed for doing that and you're gonna totally piss me off for perpetuating one of the classic negative stereotypes about harmonicas and its players.
Todd just gave you a true example of something ALL harp players NEED to learn ASAP, and that's musical discipline. Learning to work with horn sections as part of it helped out so much that even if there's no horns on the bandstandc and I'm backing someone up where horns would be, I'd be playing the horn lines with the same dynamics and swells and stuff they use and get ZERO complaints and usually surprise because they're hearing a truly disciplined musician as apposed to just another riffing idiot. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by on Nov 10, 2010 7:57 AM
That was really sweet, Todd! I've sat in with some pro horn players and been complimented,so I must be doing something right.
Slightly O.T.-"BUT, I inevitably get scolded if I play over (behind) the vocals." I find I do that a lot,especially if I don't know the song. I'll play the same thing they're singing. I won't overpower the vocals,but I am playing while they're singing. Is this wrong? I've yet have a vocalist tell me to shut up.
Bob-thanks much for the kind words.., now my hat won't fit anymore for some reason.
bonedog-that's a little neighborhood bar on the West Bank(not to be confused with the Gaza Strip, although parts of it are just as violent)in Harvey, LA, between Manhattan Blvd and the Harvey Canal drawbridge. New Orleans has sooooo many bars, though, and many have live music. Peggy Sue's lounge is the name of the one in question.
Tuck, thanks. As for playing while a singer is singing-subtlety is key. If you are playing a rhythym behind the singer, don't do any 'barks' 'growls'', 'honks'(see the thread on these)while they are actually singing-seldom is this appropriate. Playing this after a line works fine, usually, however. Something that does sound cool on occasion, if you are familiar with the melody the singer is singing, is to play a harmonizing melody in time with them. Trills(or warbles), as long is the volume and frequency is below what the singer is doing, are always a good standby, but can be overdone like anything else. A band like the one you see me with above, has no other 'accessory' players, i.e., horns, keys, etc., so i have lots of space to fill, or not, as I see fit. You have a lot less liberty when you play with a piano AND guitarist or a horn player, as someone's always trying to play fills. Watching for signals(or giving them, depending on your role) is important. Tuck, if you're not getting complaints, listen to a recording and see if it sounds like you are stepping on the vocalist, and be your own judge. It could be they just don't know how to tell you ;-) ----------
Todd L. Greene, Codger-in-training
Last Edited by on Nov 09, 2010 11:54 AM
Hmmm... I definitely feel vocals should be first and foremost. Since I'm playing the same thing they're singing but at a lot lower level,I don't think it's too clashing. I went to an open stage last night hoping I could play behind this female singer and then ask her,but she didn't show. I just don't think it's written in stone that you don't play behind the singer. But like you said,it has to be done tastefully.
I absolutely agree!! ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Until I get 'good enough' to compliment the singer like a Todd or others on this list can do - I totally lay out when my singer sings (my band's female fronted too) -IMHO very few harpoonists (even pros)enhance the vocals by playing behind them (of course they all THINK they do)- but it's a skill to be worked on - not quite sure how though? ---------- ~Banned in Boston!
I've gotten to play with horns quite a bit with Ted Hall and his band in Austin. I learned a lot jumping in with the horns and it is totally appropriate (we do play a woodwind after all, like the sax).
I definitely get horny when I comp with a band, especially when I'm the only instrument close to one...
I play with vocals some times when it is appropriate, laid back of course, playing simple response phrases or textures or repeating riffs (like a horn would do) it is not the time to break out your most frenetic Sonny Terry licks (usually)! ---------- Shane
@ todd Great playing! Great advise! I have been molding in with a band slowly on harp. The band leader is also my sax teacher but only lets me play harp with his band. Whats fun is he will call a fast shuffle, then a slow blues, then a reggae song followed by Chuck Berry. He gives me room to grow. I know when not to play which has helped me with when to play. Johnny B Goode is such a great tune to play along with. Gets everybody up off their feet. Playing side by side with a really good horn player/friend is so much fun and educational and a blast! Im practicing to play harp and horn during one song. First challenge is to understand no draw notes on the horn. Good times!
@bqb Very helpful comments and advise once again, thank you.
This is the vid I use to practice with for the CB song. Lots of versions of this great tune but this one is the most fun for me. Enjoy..
BBQBob sez: "even if there's no horns on the bandstand and I'm backing someone up where horns would be, I'd be playing the horn lines with the same dynamics and swells and stuff they use and get ZERO complaints and usually surprise because they're hearing a truly disciplined musician as apposed to just another riffing idiot."
No debate about what you are saying/doing. BUT, one problem some competent vocalists have expressed to me has nothing to do with WHAT I'm playing. As they put it, because my harp is essentially in the same range as their voice, they have problems HEARING the notes they are singing in order to properly intonate their singing if I'm playing while they are singing.
I have no opinion on the validity of this, but it has been expressed to me by musicians/vocalists whose abilities and expertise I respect. So, whether what they are telling me is right or wrong, I err on the side of caution and try not to overplay.
hvyj, a friend who is a member of our club had a talk with me last night on this very subject. He saw some vids of ours where I know good and well the camera was on the stage side of the PA speakers(the one above is one of those), therefore, the vocals seemed lower because at that vantage point, you're hearing my amp, but it sounded like I was over powering the singer, and thought he needed to teach me to play softly and with dynamics(which I do)or not at all(I do that as well)when she is singing. I know he meant well, and I thanked him. Later at the jam that John Lisi hosts in the front room of the bar our meetings are held, I didn't do so much as a warble when someone else besides myself was singing. I'd occasionally switch over to rhythm playing, doing very light and subtle chords just to keep the changes smooth during the instrumental passages(the backing band started out kind of lackluster last night, to put it mildly), and when it was my turn to wail, I did. Learning dynmamics is the most important thing for a musician to do after learnign to play the songs in key, I strongly believe. many harp players only know one volume=full tilt. If all you do is duck in and solo occasioanlly, that could work, but it's gonna take a lot more discipline to be able to stay on a stage longer than is needed for a harp solo.
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Todd L. Greene, Codger-in-training
Last Edited by on Nov 11, 2010 11:56 AM
Well, let's not confuse apples and oranges. Varying dynamics and timbre and leaving space to let the music breath so that what is played on the harp will have more emotional and musical impact are one thing. Whether or not one should play at all while the singer is singing is a related, but distinct, consideration.
Personally, I think the arrangement would have worked better if you would have stopped playing harp from 1:17-1:32. IMHO, this would have given your solo more musical and emotional impact when you came back in. BUT this is completely different from the question of whether one should play while the vocalist is singing.
I don't pretend to know the answer. I'm just passing along what my experiences have been.
Last Edited by on Nov 11, 2010 10:03 AM
Another experience comes to mind. A bandleader with a Masters in Music who I work with regularly once gave me the following insight/advice: "If you are going to play harp all the time all the way through the song, it becomes a pain in the ass to listen to. If you leave space, what would otherwise be a pain the ass takes the tune to another level when you do play".
His words, not mine. And i don't intend this to be a backhanded criticism of your playing. But it is something i think about when i perform. FWIW.
In fact, if for no other reason to keep things fresh, the next time we play this tune live, I will do some laying out altogether during the vocals(which is exactly what I do on the majority of songs we play, spare a low warble or single note or chord/octave held with vibrato), and hopefully get a vid. Unfortunately, in my minimally-populated band, this may leave some big holes. I'm all for laying back, as long as the bottom doesn't fall out! ----------
Todd L. Greene, Codger-in-training
Last Edited by on Nov 11, 2010 10:33 AM
Minimally populated? An electric guitar in the hands of a competent player can do a lot of things--one of which is build chords of different types and voicings.
Amplified harmonica has a very powerful sound. Harp can be especially effective playing the head. BUT, we can't build chords on a harmonica. We are stuck with the relatively primitive chords that are on the instrument which is actually pretty limiting. So, if you are chording, you significantly limit what the guitarist can play because the guitarist has to limit himself to playing what will fit with the primitive chords the harp is playing. I don't have a feel for how good your guitarist is, but in the bands i work with my most important responsibility is making sure I stay out of the guitar players' way because the guitar can do a lot more musically to structure and embellish the tune than a harmonica can.
And, btw, if you've ever played with a guitarist who knows how to play fills effectively behind a harp solo, you'd be amazed at how good it can make you sound.
It has been my experience that, in the hands of a competent musician, the guitar can do more for the band, the song and the harmonica than vice versa. FWIW.
Last Edited by on Nov 11, 2010 11:28 AM
'Minimally-populated' meant this particular guitarist and the lack of any other utility players. He's a jazz-trained player, and a music teacher, but this is his first actual band. I play as prolifically as I do because he often doesn't. I have played with much better guitarists than him, but he's a part of the unit and a pretty agreeable fella. He is the first guitarist I have EVER played with that I've actually had to tell to turn up, not down. I'm intuitive. If I hear that lush chords are being laid down by him or anyone who happens to join us onstage, I back off and let them flow. I really wish he would do this more-he's certainly capable-but still cutting his teeth as playing in something other than a low-key jazz ensemble, which we aren't. ----------
Todd L. Greene, Codger-in-training
Last Edited by on Nov 11, 2010 11:36 AM
But, he's friends with the singer, and the drummer has begged me for tolerance of the guy...oh, the crosses I must bear. ;-) I cut him slack because I know he's still learning about the whole 'playing live' dynamic.
At least he doesn't play with a music stand and charts in front of him. Our bassist does this, and it irks me. I could see if you were sitting in and needed to sight read some unfamiliar material, but this is the band you have been in for 8 months, for crying out loud...learn the *&%$ing songs!
But I digress...I'm far from Mr. Perfect myself. ----------
