Ok, - been "playing" since late May of '10. I feel that I fit Adam's intermediate player level fairly strongly. Maybe stronger in some aspects. Getting a feel for a consistent blue 3rd. Tongue blocks are working well on split octaves. Working on rhythm and keeping a beat. A tough order for me at this point.
So, what is [most] frustrating me is 7 hole and up. I can blow 7 thru 10 but have to use a totally different teqhnique to make it work. But not sure if my "technique" is a developing bad habit or if that is what needs to be done. Basically tightening my mouth chamber as small as I can get it and hitting the hole with a very concentrated 'toot' or toot-toot-toot. It's not smooth, more forced I'd say.
Then, 7 thru 10 draws? I think the neighbors cat ran away scared. That is if I can get a sound. Mostly chokes and squeals.
Any suggestions on how to work on the 7 - 10 holes?
---------- The more I learn about harmonica, the more I learn how much more there is to learn.
I have problems with 7-10 too Mike, especially 7, sounds like a stuck pig sometimes. Don't know if a harp can be set up so it will be easier to play on those hole or if it's just the nature of the beast and you just have to figure out the proper technique to make it work. Chords on 7-10 are fine, just single notes give me problems. Looks like a good thread to keep an eye on for an answer.
I know from experience that your embouchure must change. I think I have a pretty good embouchure for high notes...my problem is I have no idea what to do with those notes. Past whole 7 it's like I don't know what to play... ---------- Heart2Harp
Adam has 3 youtube lessons (#30-32) and a tradebit lesson, "Upper Octave Boogie" that are good to work on the upper holes.
I practiced starting on the low end either blowing or drawing and slowly sliding up the harp maintaining a constant stream of air. In Adams earlier videos he notes many start out with not having the harp enaged in your mouth enough (or something like that). I think eaharp and H2H are correct as well. I notice if I've been on the low end quite a bit, it takes a bit to warmup to the high end.
Tightening embouchure is helpful for blow bends, but should not be necessary to play the high register without bends. I routinely play the high register but I don't do much blow bending.
In second position you have a complete mixolydian scale (do-re-mi scale but with a flat seventh) between B6 and B9, which makes it REAL EASY to play melodies on the high end. This is NOT the blues scale, but it works very well over blues material, you just have to link it properly. As you bridge the middle and high registers play B5 and D6 (the sixth and ninth degrees of the scale) instead of D5 and B6 (flat seventh and root)--it's more melodic and makes for a smoother transition from the middle to upper register. If you stop thinking in terms of blues licks and start thinking in terms of melody you will be able to let music flow on the high end.
I just put up a long post on the "Fat Tone is a goal" thread. The techniques described in that post work very well for getting good tone and response on the high end.
Btw, i don't agree that embouchure must change depending on the key of the harp or whether you are in the high or low register of the harp. It is the ATTACK (application of air flow/air pressure) that has to be altered which does NOT require a change in embouchure if you have decent embouchure to begin with. I would respectfully suggest that if a player is having to alter embouchure in order to play the high end effectively (without blow bends-which do require a tightening of embouchure) then that player's embouchure is probably not optimum to start with. Similarly, I do not change embouchure whether I am playing a G harp or an F harp--but lower key harps do require a softer attack to start the larger reeds moving, while the higher harps respond better to a sharper attack.
Last Edited by on Oct 31, 2010 8:21 PM
the high end of the harp is easier with lower tuned harps such as g or a, and that is a good place to start working on that part of the harp before moving to E and F harps, for example
Great input .. thanks. I should have mentioned that at the moment I am speaking of the C harp.
Thanks for the Adam vids. Sometimes I forget to search those.
@hvyj Good stuff... Your comment on "it's the attack" makes sense to me. Depending on my attack, I could get [unintentional] blow-bends, so maybe some more experimenting with my attack.
I am really psyching myself out over the 7 draw, as TNFrank mentions sounding like a stuck pig. I have to keep the faith though, as I remember back when I *insisted* my 2 draw reed was BROKEN. ha! (it works now) LOL.
---------- The more I learn about harmonica, the more I learn how much more there is to learn.
@TahoeMike00: If you are getting unintentional blow bends, I suspect you are blowing way too hard and are probably not creating all air flow/air pressure from your diaphragm. Also, your embouchure is probably not sufficiently deep and relaxed.
It may be helpful to look at my post under the "Fat Tone is a goal" thread. I don't want to seem arrogant or egotistical, but I posted essentially the same info on Harp-l a while ago and a lot of players told me it was helpful and those techniques are sure helpful to me for playing in the high register.
7 draw can be a tough note to play. It does not resonate as naturally well as 6 draw, so it is especially important to soften the attack somewhat and keep an appropriately large and relaxed oral resonance chamber. But deep diaphragmatic air production is essential.
Last Edited by on Oct 31, 2010 9:50 PM
hvyj...A lot of great stuff that you posted on this and the other thread on tone. The open/deep embochure is how I play and I've talked before about how the harp fits in the corners of the mouth..... but I do respectfully disagree with one comment..."Tightening embouchure is helpful for blow bends"......It does bend the note, but it also changes the shape of the mouth drastically and fatness (is that a word) of tone.
If I'm playing blow 9 with open mouth and throat..as fat as I can, I simply let the tip of my tongue touch the bottom of my lower front teeth and arc the center of the tongue up and a slight change in throat position. This way you keep the big resonance chamber (fat tone) and have more control over the note as it bends.
I've studied Jason's playing a lot. Not just listening, but watching. There is no way he could play all those fast licks so cleanly if he did a complete embochure change between notes. He plays draws, draw bends, blows, blow bends, overblows, overdraws, inflections, deflections, vibrato, growl, whatever.. with the same open embochure. I may be wrong, but it seems most of the works is in the throat and slight variances in mouth shape. If he "tightens down", no way he can go fast and clean.
@harpdude61: I've played blow bends both ways. I don't use blow bends very much when I perform and I don't consider myself to be a particularly accomplished blow bender.
When I was learning to blow bend, I took a lesson from a very well known and well respected pro who recommended tightening the embouchure and it does work--and you don't have to tighten very much if you're good at it. In fact, if you tighten, you don't even need to use the tongue. But, yes, I agree that you can get a fatter tone if you don't tighten. At one point, I was trying to play all blow bends just using my throat without tightening or using the tongue which is more difficult but does produce an even fatter tone, but I couldn't get either of the 10 hole blow bends that way.
But, yeah, I don't disagree with what you are saying.
Last Edited by on Nov 01, 2010 6:20 AM
@hvyj..I am by no means a pro and I probably should not have used the word disagree. Just another way to do the same thing I guess.
Just like a couple of weeks ago I saw a pretty good player that did what I thought was unusual, but it works for him. When he went from two hole draw to two hole draw bent a whole step, his chin dropped about 3 inches. I can't do this. My chin stays down the whole time.
@harpdude61: NBD. I'm no expert on blow bending. I am able to hit all the blow bends and I can get them all on ANY key of harp, but I have trouble getting consistent separation on the two 10 hole blow bends. But I don't work at it that much since I almost never use blow bends when I perform.
There's a lot of poor harp playing technique out there. All things being equal, I perceive no advantage to what the player who dropped his jaw 3 inches was doing. I think it is better technique to leave the jaw dropped all the time because you get better resonance and therefore better tone that way. Personally, I do all draw bends using my throat.
Adam had a great video for sale on Tradebit titled Harmony for Improvisation. I worked with the lower octave and implied that they would be more lessons on the subject.
I can no longer find it on Tradebit nor any subsequent videos. Can anybody (Adam) confirm that there is more coming. ----------
BTW I just got this CD and it has a wide variation of harp playing and harp players... great listening! and it also has lots of high notes.... SAVE!! ...I'm back on topic..... ---------- DutchBones Tube
Last Edited by on Nov 02, 2010 8:11 PM
I play a lot on the high end of the harp...a lot. I was trying to brainstorm something helpful to say, but am not sure this will help.
1.) Try several harps - stock harps are hit or miss up there.
2.) I articulate the majority of my single notes. The attack softens as I work up the harp, so by the high octave, it is very very light.
3.) Don't tighten your embouchure!!!! I only blow bend via lip pursing and my emouchure is the same as when I overblow in the middle of the harp. Your jaw shouldn't need to move to play up there....your tongue, yes.
4.) Those notes don't need to be hit hard. It is hard to "wail" up there. You can't hit the bends the same way as a draw bend and it becomes more of a finesse thing. Even when someone like Kim Wilson is up there, the attack is different.
5.) It is hard to hit a wrong note up there in 2nd position. While you may not have the traditional blues scale, you have the mixolydian mode and if you don't blow bend, you can't hit a musically wrong note. The major 3rd and 6th are there, which give a lighter sound, but they are not wrong notes against a Dominant 7th chord or 7th chord or Major chord.
John Popper is the best high end harp player out there (assuming we all recognize Howard Levy is in his own universe) out of the most recognized players. I am not talking JP's fast pattern stuff either. Listen to his live playing, especially when doing covers. There is a Youtube of him sitting in with some random band playing "I Will Survive" and on the Adam Corolla show being put on the spot to jam to a Paula Abdul song. In both examples he is able to play the vocal melody on the high end of the harp without rehearsing it.
Blues Traveler's last few albums have a lot more melodic playing (with embellishment) and you can hear a ton of great melodic ideas on the high end of the harp...all on Special 20's with no overblows.
People like Adam Gussow and Sugar Blue and Kim Wilson are great to listen to for high end blues riffs, but at risk of being flammed, I'd say their upper octave playing is more riff based than melody driven - meaning they improv using rehearsed vocabulary up there with less variance than in other octaves.
Granted, there are many examples of Blue playing melodically up there, but if you search out his live playing, it is much more riff driven. ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Amp for Harp Blog
It might be worth explaining melody/riffing in this context as I should have used a different term maybe.
All players who are improvising, IMO, recycle interval patterns all the time within a scale. This is often time what gives them their sound. Sometimes it is embellishments around a more melodic line and other times it is flat out rehashing of a riff. This is a rather large generalization and doesn't account for variation in dynamics or techniques beyond their approach to note choice/patterns.
The difference, from my experience, is that some players try and learn more and more riffs so they can play longer without recycling an interval pattern. Others, and this is to some extent what I think Popper frequently does in the upper octave, is vary the rhythm of the intervals.
Neither approach is any better than the other, but they are different. Lots of players focus on learning more and more riffs and replay them with limited variation within a set of music. The players with more riffs are more diverse in their playing. That doesn't mean they are playing the same thing over and over, just that they have a riff based approach. This is how David Barrett teaches blues harp, for example.
Buddha would be an example of someone, who when generally improving, varies the rhythm of what is played while generally playing similar interval progressions from song to song.
Again, this does't take into account anything other than note selection and rhythm. Obviously there are many other factors that can make a soloist interesting and fun to listen to over many songs that are generally built over the same scale useage.
A concrete example of both in practice is learning a scale pattern. When starting out, that is all I wanted to learn. Then, I realized that while I could start and stop a pattern on different intervals, I always played them the same way - as a shuffle, in triplets, all quarter notes, etc. I was essentially transposing the same licks over different songs and repeating myself.
I then tried to take those patterns and learn to play them with rhythmic variation. The note choice and order remained the same, but the rhythmic variation made them much much more interesting to hear. Then you start to add other dynamic elements and you're golden.
When I practice now, I only practice two things. Rhythm and tone. I do this through the study of arppegios, scales, and patterns.
I'll reiterate what Mike said about John Popper:my biggest influence on playing the upper register is JP. He's a melodic player moreso than a riff player. Nothing wrong with either if it fits the song and sounds good. Some seriously good benchmarking of how to approach more than holes 1-6 can be done by listening to Blues Traveler or JP's solo stuff, whether you like his high-speed soloing runs or not.
Oh, and most of his playing is in 2nd position. ----------
Todd L. Greene, Codger-in-training
Last Edited by on Nov 03, 2010 10:24 AM
You are right, but depending on the context, it is typically like how Popper uses chord extensions...which isn't always as "jazzy" or savvy as one would believe. ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Amp for Harp Blog
Thanks for the input. As a beginner, I can absorb bits and pieces but a majority of it just bounces off the top of my head.
But I am finding tongue placement is [more] important on 7 and up. I discovered by accident/experimentation that the tip of my tongue was popping up directly in front of the airstream (on draw obviously) and with some maneuvering I was able to get a 7 draw without choking or squeeling. Now I just need to be able to repeat it!
---------- The more I learn about harmonica, the more I learn how much more there is to learn.
@TahoeMike00: If you LP, your tongue should be flat on the floor of your mouth as you play in order to have a large, relaxed unobstructed airway and oral resonance chamber.
Yes, I will definitely do more of these, but my attentions are unfortunately scattered these days--making my album, producing Brandon's, getting into gear with Hill Country Harmonica 2011, and occasionally being forced to preside over this snake pit--and I just haven't had the time or presence of mind.....
