Yes, the amp has got something to do with it, but having just listened to loads of intermediate/expert/pro players at our big jam here in Uk, I can say that a few, very few had that 'holy grail' tone, that amongst others, Kim Wilson gets.
Who has had someone come up after a gig and say 'nice tone'
Do you mean from a person who is in a position to judge that sort of thing because they are knowledgeable or just some random drunken schmuck?
I find that the amp has little to do with it. For example, Kenny Neal has some of the prettiest harp tone around and he rarely plays through an amplifier. James Cotton has beautiful tone and he rarely plays through an amp anymore.
Fat tone is produced by a large relaxed oral resonance chamber, an open airway, deep diaphragmatic air production and a deep embouchure. These can be accomplished by TBing or LPing.
To immediately improve tone if you LP, be sure the harp is so deep in your mouth that the face of the comb is pressing against the corners of your mouth. This is the only place where the lips actually contact the harp--the rest of the area in contact with the harp is the mouth just INSIDE of the lip lines. I like to tilt the holes down towards my throat which actually puts the holes inside the mouth past the top teeth which produces a larger less obstructed oral resonance chamber. Not everyone tilts this way, but if yo do, it will be the edge of the top coverplate that contacts the corners of your mouth.
Your jaw should be dropped and relaxed. Your mouth jaw and throat must be relaxed and should be in more or less the same position as when you yawn--dropped and open. ALL air pressure must come from the diaphragm, NOT from the mouth jaw or lips. Your pharynx (nasal airway) should ordinarily be closed, but you can open it to to let air come in and out through the nose in order to vary tonal quality if you can exercise that sort of control--if not, don't use any nasal airflow.
Okay, here's the important part: Make a large air aperture (opening in your lips) AS BIG AS POSSIBLE consistent with still being able to play a single note. This will be a whole lot bigger than the shape of the lips when you sip through a straw and probably a whole lot bigger than you think it can be. Now blow and draw using an unfocused air stream like you are fogging glass for a nice large, fat, broad airflow.
If you do all of this and STAY RELAXED you should get nice fat depth of tone. If you are doing it right it will almost feel like there is a direct connection between your diaphragm and the reeds linked by a column of air.
I put a similar post up on Harp-l a year or so ago and I got quite a few emails from players who found it helpful. So, maybe you guys will find it helpful, too
Other musicians regularly tell me I have fat tone. But they never did until I started using the techniques I've described above.
I get a lot of compliments on my tone too. HVYJ is right about how to get good fundamental tone - it starts with good tone through the harp - and getting more of it in your mouth and ensuring the holes you are fully playing are fully open. Dave Barrett teaches the "tilt down" technique too.
But if you're amplified, you still have a lot to learn. Amps and mics make a difference and cupping technique matters a lot. I have customers who are near enough come by to test mics and amps at my place. A guy with good fundamental tone will still get a thinner sound through the same rig I use if he doesn't have good mic technique. Given the wrong gear and amp that can become harsh and downright painful to listen to. I've been able to show people what they're shooting for and how it is accomplished and help them a lot with their amplified tone in 15 minutes.
Listen to Ant138's tone in his "shuffling in the office" thread. He has very good tone and his hand technique is what will get him good amplified tone too. He is sealing the front of the harp, not just the back, and this deepens the tone and gives great dynamic effect to the "wahs" that he does. When you get that kind of seal to the mic and harp when playing amplified it really helps to fatten the sound.
@Greg: Thanks for the comment's that means alot coming from someone like yourself. Your right i do seal the front of the harp and i also try to put as much of the harp in my mouth as possible. I also think Tongue Blocking has played a big part in my tone these days it just seems to make it fatter, but again when i LP i try and put as much of the harp in my mouth as possible and again it seems to thicken the tone.
As for my Wah's well that is something i've been working on for a while(mainly after watching Jason Ricci do his). I really try to say the word "wah" when i do one and really try to project it with my hands, i find that makes a big difference.
In My last video where i'm playing Walter's Boogie testing out my new Astatic 200 mic i got a few comments saying i had good amplified tone, I didn't have a big rig or anything just my new mic played straight through a regular 5W Epiphone Valve jr, no mods with the vol set to just above 1 (they are loud little amps), but it proves you don't need the best equipment in the world to get a good sound. This doesn't mean i wont be buying anything form you at some point Greg , i still lust after alot of your stuff:o) ----------
http://www.youtube.com/user/fiendant?feature=mhum
Last Edited by on Nov 01, 2010 2:11 AM
Dave Barrett was at the Uk harp festival this weekend and I chatted to him and heard him play, yes indeed a tone I appreciated.
Rachelle Plas surprisingly did not take the Mic and Bassman when I handed it to her, but instead took off one of the vocal pa mic's and screwed her own in (shure) I think.
Let me second what Greg is saying. Good amplified tone starts with good acoustic tone, BUT good acoustic tone alone won't give you good amplified tone. Like Greg says, mic handling technique (how you cup) is an essential part of the amplified tone equation. It ain't just the gear--it's how you use it.
Too many players equate dirty amplified sound as fat tone, which is NOT the same thing at all, and fat tone HAS to be achieved acoustically first and a good part of what hvyj says, I'm in 100% agreement with and what he describes is not jsut the way to acoustically achieve it, but it also describes how you play RESONATELY, something the average player does NOT do and you have to be 100% fully relaxed to achieve it. Just look at James Cotton, and all he generally uses since 1977 has been playing straight thru the PA and few are going to be questioning how fat his tone is and his tone a lot of people would dearly love to have using all of the rigs they;ve ever wasted their money on trying to get that.
The nice thing about open jams where the harp player is forced to play thru the PA is that everyone is on an equal footing and can't rely on the gear to hide their warts and you'll know pretty quickly if they've got real tone and resonance or not.
Good tone is achievable using either TB or LP methods and I use both and can fool a lot of people either way. The real deal is learning how to play resonantly and unfrotunately, most people don't. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
For a long time after I started playing I was completely ignorant about equipment. It was a blessing in disguise. Back in Chicago, a harp player named Jerome Binder hipped me to the JT30 and where I could get one.
After that, I started looking at amps. In Chicago, during the early 80's, players were using a variety of amplification options. Most of the older black players that were active in the 50's were playing through the PA. (I didn't realize it until much later that some of those PA's were tube PA's.) The only older guy that was using an amp was Little Willie Anderson. He used a silver face Super Reverb.
The younger guys were using all sorts of amps, but I don't remember anyone using a tweed amp. Billy Branch used a variety of amps. Sugar Blue played through a small Mesa Boogie combo that was super loud and toneful. Scott Bradbury used a black face Fender Deluxe Reverb. I saw other players using a variety of amps from Silvertones to Peaveys. Since all of those guys sounded great, I didn't think the amp mattered much.
I bought the cheapest amp with reverb that I could get. It was a 50 watt solid state Yamaha amp with a single 12" ceramic speaker. In retrospect, it was a horrible combination for playing out, but it was great to learn on.
Fortunately, I was greener than a pool table and twice as square. I spent several years attempting to recreate the sounds I was hearing around the city. I spent a ton of time trying to get decent tone out of that amp/mic combination. Sometimes, the results were good. Sometimes, it wasn't so good. I never considered buying a different amp, because I didn't think it was necessary. The more I worked at it, the better it started to sound.
I learned a lot of good stuff like microphone handling techniques. I experimented a lot and found different techniques yielded different sounds through trial and error. I learned that good equipment, while helpful, doesn't necessarily generate the good sounds.
Another nice thing is that I don't freak out, if I am asked to sit in and there is no harp amp. I'm just as happy playing through a PA as a killer harp rig. I also don't mind plugging into a solid state guitar amp like a Peavey Bandit.
Kim's latest setup is a Skip Simmons tweaked PA head into two cabs with a 15 in each-90% of the top touring pro blues harp players are using harp specific/ tube amps-Billy Branch,Sugar Blue and Lee Oskar are the exceptions.
Last Edited by on Nov 01, 2010 11:28 AM
@Nick - I live in a very cool part of the US with a very nice Blues scene. There are multiple blues jams on most weeknights where I live. When attending a jam, I have two goals. My first objective is to have fun and socialize with my friends. My second objective is to survive my time on stage.
Jams are funny things. There are going to be good nights and bad nights. Some nights, I might be playing with Charlie Musselwhite's or Mark Hummel's rhythm section. Other nights, I'll get to play with people who hate Blues, yet feel compelled to attend a Blues jam. Hence, my desire to survive.
I'm not a great bandleader. I'm not a great singer. I will only do songs that I think I can pull off. That means no tunes that are complicated. No tunes with breaks that will be missed or screwed up. No tunes with arrangements that have to be explained. If I have to explain it, it's going to get screwed up.
I try to do the same tunes with the same people. That way after playing it a few times, it starts to sound like we've rehearsed or practiced the tune.
What I do depends on the abilities of the guys on stage, including myself. I also try to differentiate myself from the other players and what they were playing. If they were playing through an amp, I may use the PA and vice versa.
I don't sweat equipment choices. Most people don't complain about my harp playing. If they complain about me, it's because I play too many Chicago-style shuffles and they want to play rock.
The only way I know to achieve really good tone is to keep playing and practicing. It eventually comes, if you are serious and committed to it. You don't need huge hands. You don't need to tongue block exclusively. You don't need to be a big person. You've just got to keep doing it.
I guess I have pretty good throat vibrato, because I had a guitar player ask me where my Leslie cabinet was.
As for opening the airway, get this: I bought my kids a couple of Jaw Harps (there is another, not PC name for them, which I would rather not go into, being a member of that tribe, and also because I don't want to violate the forum creed. Moreover, I think that people who...sorry) and showed them how to "twang" them. Not much volume. Made my teeth hurt. Then I opened up my mouth, dropped my tongue and opened my throat, and I could feel that twangy buzzing all the way down to my lungs! Sort of freaked my kids out, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.
Next, I tried the same with my harp and it seemed to make a difference, although not as dramatic as with the Jaw Harps. YMMV. ----------
My acoustic tone is better than my amped tone. Between the cupping, posture, and dealing with the volume of a band, there are so many variables that can get me out of sync. ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Amp for Harp Blog
Yes-everyone except Cotton used this setup at Amandas Rollercoaster in Phoenix. Here is the newest setup which features a DI box,Kinder AFB and Midbass Cut-When I peeked in the cab at the Phoenix show,there was a Weber 15 inside.
This is Scott Dirks review of KIm's setup-it was a real pleasure meeting Scott and hearing him play!!
A word on Kim’s rig: I’ve seen him many times over the past 25 years or so, and this was the most elaborate set up I’ve ever seen him use. He used his standard Astatic JT-30 mic, which was plugged into a tiny outboard tube preamp. Apparently the preamp pumped up the signal and split it into two outputs. One output led to the phono input on a modified Masco PA head that looked to be from around 1949 or ’50. The speaker output from the Masco was then split to feed two different cabinets: a Victoria Amps cabinet with one 15” speaker, and an old raggedy original Fender Bassman used only as a speaker cab. The other output from the outboard preamp went to the instrument input on a blackface Fender amp (possibly a Fender Pro?), which was then controlled separately with its own volume, tone, and etc. I assume this provided a slightly cleaner sound than the funky Masco. All three cabinets were mic’d and put through the house PA. The sound was truly awe inspiring, and Kim generously let all the harp players who cared to use it do so. The interesting thing of course is that Kim sounded exactly like Kim, but none of the other players did – maybe that was his point?
BBQBob said "Too many players equate dirty amplified sound as fat tone, which is NOT the same thing at all,"
Well - I understand what you're saying, but I don't fully agree. I think our difference is only semantic. Yes, there is "thin" and "fat" acoustic tone. Yes, "fat" acoustic tone will sound better amplified, even through a PA, which DOESN'T ADD ANYTHING. However tube amps ADD HARMONIC OVERTONES, including distinctly audible notes in the bass range. To me, that is indeed "fattening" the tone. ---------- /Greg
Greg, Not all of us like all that dirt (a/k/a "HARMONIC OVERTONES, including distinctly audible notes in the bass range.") While it can be very cool, it also can be very limiting.
For example, if I'm playing a jazz gig where there's a lot of electric contemporary jazz being played and I'm using electronic gizmos (effects pedals) it ain't going to sound good going into an amp that generates a lot of dirt. Ditto for playing reggae with a reggae band.
All that dirt is fine for a certain style of music and, yes, it has definite stylistic and aesthetic appeal--but not for everything and not even for all blues material, IMHO.
Btw, I got to play through an Avenger at a blues jam the other night. It may have been the cheesey bullet mic the owner had hooked up to it (a brand new Digital Reference Red Howler from Guitar Center) but I thought it sounded like shit. No articulation, no dimension, and a lot of indistinct tube generated dirt. My Princeton Reverb Reissue was set up right next to it and had far superior depth and range of tone, greater clarity and far superior articulation--as well as, surprisingly comparable volume as compared to the Avenger. Of course, I was using a 545 Ultimate i got from you into the Princeton, which helped and, to be fair, the Avenger would probably have sounded a whole lot better than it did if i could have plugged into it with my own mic and fiddled with the dials a little.
But my point is, not all competent players like all that tube generated overtone stuff messing with the sound we are trying to get. Yes, what you are doing sounds great, but it's not a one size fits all prescription for great tone--but, for sure, it is ONE KIND of great tone that is unquestionably suitable for certain purposes.
I have enormous respect for your opinions--I just don't always agree with them!
The "Red Howler" is a piece of shit-no amp will sound good with a piece of shit mic. The Avenger is one of the best sounding amps out there-not just for harp either-I have already had reports of guitar players running through this amp with great success. Bottom line-it was definetly the mic that sounded like shit. Thomas Fiacco III
But, anyway, the OP wants a Kim Wilson kind of tone, and I guess the point to take away is that he shouldn't look to hvyj for any tips.
If a poster ask how to get a certain fat Chicago sound, why bother posting about how you are using a bunch of effect pedals to get a processed poppy tone for your jazz and reggae gigs? It's a total non-sequitur.
@Ev630: As i understood it, the thread was about "nice tone" NOT just Chicago blues tone. Btw, I spend my share of time playing with blues bands comprised of mostly authentic blues players originally from the deep south and in those situations I ordinarily use tube amps with NO pedals. But I DON'T set up for a lot of dirt.
I make no apologies for being able to play more than one style of music. The fact that so many harp players can only play blues is one reason why harp players as a group are often disrespected by other musicians.
The primary problem I have with dirty amps is if, for example, I want to play a sax line at the same speed as a sax (which I am able to do) a lot of tube generated dirt keeps me from getting clean separation between the notes, so i have to slow down in order to sound musical. I'm not claiming to be a great player--it's just that I can't play up to my capabilities with an amp that generates a lot of distortion.
Kim Wilson is a great player and has a great sound. But, I am not interested in getting a Kim Wilson tone. If you are, more power to you. IMHO, most blues harp players spend too much time and effort trying to imitate blues recordings and have about as much musical creativity as your average Elvis impersonator.
Last Edited by on Nov 02, 2010 9:46 AM
I like to experiment with different rigs and recently tried a cleaner amp with one that is more overdriven and loved the sound. Not sure I'm willing to do that for every gig but I feel better about it after reading how much work KW puts into his rig. Of course, I need more help from my rig than Kim does! LOL I think we each seem to have a specific sound in our head and that we each have to spend some time chasin' it. After we find it and play it for awhile it seems that the tone drifts or our tastes become more refined or something and then we start chasin' it again. A lot of our "heroes" who are touring have changed many times! All the best, Jay
When I want that 'fat' sound, I can get it, and with whatever mic. Like hvyj says, though, I like and need the articulation of notes with my style of playing, and this usually means a little less distortion. I can get from one degree to the other on the fly by varying and tightening my hand cup, covering the unplayed holes on my harp, etc.
There is something to be said for applying all this and running thru some good speaker volume, like a few 10s or a 12...the 15 sounds fun, too. ----------
Todd L. Greene, Codger-in-training
Last Edited by on Nov 02, 2010 10:54 AM
@9000 - The reason a lot of those guys change is because some of them like to travel light and borrow gear when they arrive in town. Who would want to carry all of that gear on an airplane?
I've loaned amps to people while they are on the road or visiting the area. I've borrowed amps from people. Gear is meant to be played. If I'm not using it, someone else might as well use it. I only let people use stuff that I consider trustworthy.
I've got friends that do the same thing. They loan out amps frequently when people are visiting town. I consider that to be a very gracious and hospitable thing to do.
It also reinforces that the sound comes from the player.
I make no apologies for being able to play more than one style of music. The fact that so many harp players can only play blues is one reason why harp players as a group are often disrespected by other musicians.
Hmm. Maybe. But I've never, ever, been disrespected by serious professional blues musicians. In fact, I've been invited by several top pros to play with them at festivals, open for them at CD launches and even be asked to be a part of a commercial recording for a major league football campaign. You know, session work with folks who understand more music theory than I ever will.
If a reggae or jazz or pop musician thinks me being a harp player makes me less of a musician... I could hardly give a shit.
Besides, the reason Kim Wilson is great? He has focused on mastering one form, instead of mastering a little of everything.
Anyway, more power to you. If I could play like Toots Theilemans, I would. But life is too short and before I get there, I want to master a bunch of blues stuff.
The amount of distortion that an amp has doesn't directly correllate to how well it cuts, how well articulation is defined, nor how fast you can play.
Small amps are easy to drive into distortion, because they have smaller power supplies & possibly less filtering, they run out of steam earlier. If you have a big amp, with a bigger power supply, better filtering you can run it distorted (by that I mean a mid heavy, lower fi tone) but still play fast and hear note separation, articulation...every breath.
Most amps distort once you stick several volts of harp signal into them, however if they distort in a smooth, mid scooped fashion, then they are often perceived as cleaner, despite being far from it. In fact dynamics can suffer in an amp with too scooped a mid sound. Pushed hard you get more even order harmonics which, in moderation, fatten the sound, as long as the power supply can support it...whichever you prefer is up to you...
But as regards a player's tone, you should really look at a stage amplifier as a means of making you louder, preferably with a warm tone. You can cut highs to make it sound deeper, but you may lose fidelity...the amp can only really amplify what you put into it. It all starts with the player, if an amp mnakes you sound fat, then it'll just make a fatter player sound fatter still.
@hvyj re: "But my point is, not all competent players like all that tube generated overtone stuff "
We have no argument. I never meant to imply that all players like that particular sound, though many do. I was only saying AGAIN that to suggest that amp+mic+technique is NOT part of one's amplified tone is incorrect, and that the injection of harmonic overtones does necessarily "fatten" tone.
I certainly look for articulation in my playing. I don't mind playing through an acoustic mic. The "crunch" I CAN get from my rig is simply another dimension in my range of expression.
@Greg; Btw, I happen to like your sound a lot. It's just not MY sound. And, yes, if one is an electric player, the equipment is certainly part of the equation. Particularly, IMHO, the mic.
@Ev630: Just to set the record straight, like you, I'm in absolutely no danger of being able to play like Toots Theilmans. There are many reasons for this, one of which is that I am not particularly competent on a chrom.
Oops, that came out a little wrong...I didn't mean "JUST a pretty tone", in the sense that it lacked anything else, more that being a pretty tone was it's own validating point...whatever the component parts...
Sorry, I shouldn't post after going down the pub....did I ever tell you that you are my bestest buddy...I mean ever...no seriously...
Apropos of nothing, whenever I read someone equating the bullet mic/tube amp combination with a muddy tone that lacks clarity and separation of notes, I always think of Sugar Blue, Andy Just and Mark Ford. Incidentally, Blue and Ford have each told me they tongue block everything (not sure about AJ - never met him).
@BBQ Bob,any tips on resonance? I assume its dropping your jaw, relaxing, breathing from the gut and more harp in the mouth.
I notice that when I played in front of an audience I began to feel short of breath. I was too hyped up and didn't relax much. By the second song I was more relaxed and that helped my breathing and tone. Relaxation probably comes from having more experiences which builds more confidence.
@Blueswannabe --- What I recommend EVERY harp player do is go to a reputable vocal coach and get some breathing and relaxation exercises thru them because both of these are absolute VITAL in order to get the best possible vocal tone, along with proper support and avoid being winded, and that's largely the same thing with harmonica. I did it and it was one of the best things I've ever done. Another thing about vocal lessons is that it will also better articulate vowel sounds so they don't sound weak, meaning you learn to manipulate the inside shape of your mouth, which also aids in getting a wide variety of tonal colors.
One of the very first things vocal coaches check is your breathing and relaxation technique, and for nearly every beginner, it's usually not very good, to be polite about it.
I strongly recommend going to one.
One good exercise to relax is a deep yawn, but done VERY slowly, and then letting the air out as slowly and softly as possible, which will help relax you and keep the throat more wide open. In fact, quite a few singers often do that quitely somewhere as part of their warm up exercises. If you ever watch an opera singer, that's one of the things they always do. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
