MichaelAndrewLo
464 posts
Oct 30, 2010
11:18 PM
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Since I am working full-time now I have to be real organized with my practice time.
I am planning minimum 2 hours per day of practice but hope to fit at least 3 hours. Anyway, I am only planning for the minimum.
Here's what I will be practicing based off 2 hours:
30 minutes: Learning solos by ear from "blues saxophone" by dennis taylor from his recorded tracks. Also studying the sheet music to learn the music and theory.
30 minute: Working on 1 lesson per week from Adam Gussow (from this site and his youtube lessons)
30 minutes: learning riffs and complete songs from records (Jim Liban live in this case)
30 minutes: playing to jam tracks.
Any critiques or suggestions welcome. Anything I am missing or should add to make my practice schedule more comprehensive?
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Andrew Larson, R.N.
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boris_plotnikov
288 posts
Oct 31, 2010
12:27 AM
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15 minutes for chugging exercises at the beginning of the lesson. I recommend practice it with dynamics and some rhythmic difficulties like 3 notes over 4 beats or 4 notes over 3 beat, odd timing like 5/4, 7/8, accents in 16th.
15 minutes for scales.
I'd recommend to learning non-harmonica solos. Also figure out what are your weak points (tone? timing? phrasing? intonation? dynamics? are anything perfect?) and work on them mostly. It's much better, than collecting riffs with bad tone and bad timing, e.g.
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Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
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Buddha
2644 posts
Oct 31, 2010
5:38 AM
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what are your goals?
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"I am a great believer in understanding, not copying."
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hvyj
763 posts
Oct 31, 2010
6:18 AM
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I could certainly stand to do more structured practice on a more consistent basis. And if I did, personally I would be working on practicing scales and arpeggios. If one gets good facility playing those, it's easier to play anything else AND you really learn your way around the harp.
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MichaelAndrewLo
468 posts
Oct 31, 2010
9:22 AM
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Buddah my goals are to first learn to play blues well in 1st position, 2nd position, and 3rd position and then to start playing jazz and other types of music. I have already learned the 12 major scales on the harp so I know the layout of all the notes (mostly on a C harp) but have also learned think of the keys in terms of the B-flat harp as well. I have these conflicting goals to treat harmonica like clarinet meaning play one instrument in all 12 keys. But harmonica is unique in that it has certain "sweet spots" that can be taken advantage of. Any tips to consolidate this?
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Andrew Larson, R.N.
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diletto
13 posts
Oct 31, 2010
9:31 AM
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hi buddha...to your sig I can say that I understand by copying! whenever I listen to the harp-greats and find this or that line interesting, I harp that line "until my lips bleed"...and by doing so increase my understanding... ;-)
greetz from hamburg, germany
Last Edited by on Oct 31, 2010 9:49 AM
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hvyj
764 posts
Oct 31, 2010
11:48 AM
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@MichaelAndrewLo: Why emphasize blues and why just 1st, 2d and 3d positions? FWIW, my ability to play expanded significantly after I learned 5th position. I use 4th and 5th positions quite a bit for minor key material and 12th is useful for certain jazz material.
None of these positions is more difficult or more advanced than another. IMHO, they can and should be learned simultaneously. IMHO, the easiest way to learn multiple positions is by learning to play pentatonic scales which have certain common breath patterns. I have tabbed these out in my user profile. Learn 3 breath patterns and you will be able to play 6 different positions well enough to improv if you've got a good enough ear (which I suspect you do).
Playing different positions also gets you thinking out of the usual box and you will learn the "sweet spots" on the harmonica that that different positions have available. Even if you OB well, the reality is that a diatonic harmonica isn't a clarinet. If you can play multiple positions AND you can OB the available musical possibilities are greatly enhanced.
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RyanMortos
867 posts
Oct 31, 2010
3:44 PM
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Sounds pretty good to me. Long as it's an enjoyable 2 hours. Not sure where you find 2-3 hours but more power to yah.
I usually practice 2 30 minute periods per day on average (which is basically the maximum time I have free anyway). Though what you practice and what I practice are nearly 2 different sets of things. The one thing you practice I am working on doing more of is playing with jam tracks. Similarly you are spending 30 minutes/day on Adam's youtube videos; I'm working on stuff from David Barret's site (just started a week ago).
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~Ryan
"I play the harmonica. The only way I can play is if I get my car going really fast, and stick it out the window." - Stephen Wright
Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
Contact:
My youtube account
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MichaelAndrewLo
469 posts
Oct 31, 2010
8:16 PM
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@ hvyi I am focusing on 1st, 2nd, and 3rd position because most of the high quality lessons on youtube and elsewhere are covering this material. I was a member of Howard Levy's online school for 3 months and learned at the positions and scales as well as learning all my 2-5-1 stuff (this was mostly review for me but new for learning on harmonica). After that I decided that I will focus on one specific thing ti MASTER it before moving on. I am a big proponent of the "effortless mastery" school of thought: Practice one thing or focus on one area until you can play it effortless (and perfectly) every time without thought. To answer your question why 1st 2nd and 3rd position? Because if I master those positions it will be a much shorter road to mastering all the other positions, and the scales. I am trying to go an inch wide and a mile deep but your approach sounds a mile wide and an inch deep.
@ Ryan Barretts site is EXCELLENT! I learned so much about tongue blocking from his site and he's the reason I now cover 4 holes when I tongue block (pretty much 100% of the time) and can tongue switch effectively. In terms of "finding" the time, I think it has to do with my choice of having a girlfriend who has her own life and not ever wanting to have kids or lots of possessions (I will have enough money to retire in 6-10 years).
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Andrew Larson, R.N.
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hvyj
770 posts
Oct 31, 2010
9:29 PM
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@MichaelAndrewLo: Well, we can agree to disagree about whether one should learn positions 4, 5 and 12 simultaneously with positions 1, 2 and 3. IMHO, the reason why most harp players consider positions above third to be advanced or difficult is because most instructional materials stop at third position. As far as I am concerned this is a deficiency in the teaching materials which makes them (and the players who rely on them) less than complete. I think you make a mistake by allowing your learning process to be limited in this manner. It is actually EASIER (more "effortless") to master multiple positions simultaneously than separately because of how they are interrelated.
Look at it this way: Playing in multiple positions is simply learning to play the instrument in different keys, which musicians who play other instruments do as a matter of course. And there are musical relationships between/among the different positions/keys that open up when you learn them simultaneously but which are not as readily apparent otherwise. Anyway, that has been my experience, FWIW.
On a different point, though, I would strongly suggest that you regularly make time and find opportunities to play in public with other musicians. Maybe you already do this, but the experience of playing with others is an important catalyst for musical development. No matter how much you practice, there's all kinds of important stuff you only learn through interaction with other musicians in a performance setting. Just a suggestion, but there's been times I've learned more in 20 minutes on stage with good musicians than I was able to pick up from a month of structured practice.
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Kyzer Sosa
849 posts
Oct 31, 2010
10:17 PM
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i also recommend setting aside an allocation of time for practicing interaction with the opposite sex. with all this talk of regimented harmonica practice, one can only assume the random "nothing ever goes as planned" shtick will pop its evil head out and ruin things, if regimented, for eternity. leaving you impossibly behind expectations set for yourself.
I do hope you find comfort in whatever stamp youre able to put towards practice efforts. it IS ever so important. As for me, with my lifestyle, I could never stick to any such schedule. hvyj's last sentence in the post above speaks volumes. I'd be nowhere near the level i am today had i never met the boys I play music with now...
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Kyzer's Travels
Kyzer's Artwork
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MichaelAndrewLo
471 posts
Nov 01, 2010
5:04 AM
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@ hvyi and kyzer I got a good laugh out of your last comments! Is 2 hours a lot? To me it's very little largely in part because I DO have a girlfriend who it would be unfair to for me to still be practicing my normal 4-5 hours a day. So... I devote at least an hour of "practice" to her as well! ;)
And just because of my "practice" schedule yes I play in a bluegrass duo and 2 punk bands! Just yesterday were our first shows! What I practice and what I "play" are often two different things and I have found I can play multiple "positions" with other musicians because I don't think in positions but keys and scales and modes. I already have this knowledge and so perhaps that is why I don't have to make the extra effort? I just wanna be a musician masquerading as a harmonica player once in a while! :p
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Andrew Larson, R.N.
Last Edited by on Nov 01, 2010 5:05 AM
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Hobostubs Ashlock
1190 posts
Nov 01, 2010
5:21 AM
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how is a scale different than a mode?,are they different? i havent been able to find someone who can explain if you dont mind me asking, thanks
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hvyj
772 posts
Nov 01, 2010
5:59 AM
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A mode is a type of diatonic scale.
For example, the Ionian mode happens to be identical to the "do-re-mi" scale and the Aeolian mode is identical to the natural minor scale. The Dorian mode doesn't correspond to any other scale but is widely used--it's the minor scale you get when you play a harp in third position. The Mixolydian mode is just a "do-re-mi" scale but with a flat 7th and is also widely used. Playing blow 6 to blow 9 in second position gives you the Mixolydian mode (do-re-mi scale but with a flat 7th--which is draw 9).
A "do-re-mi" scale has half steps between the 3d and 4th degrees of the scale and the seventh and octave root of the scale. All other degrees of the "do-re-mi" scale are whole steps. Each mode is a scale that has different patterns of whole steps and half steps and the Greek names are just shorthand for these different patterns.
Positions 1 through 6 and 12 are each related to a different mode. You are not necessarily in that mode when you are playing in that position. But if you are in a position that relates to a particular mode it will be possible to play that particular mode (scale) somewhere on that harmonica without having to bend. For example, in fifth position playing blow 5 though blow 8 is the Phrygian mode which is a scale that has a flat 2d, flat 3d, flat 6th and flat 7th. If you avoid the flat 2d you've got the same notes natural minor scale which is why fifth position is good to use for playing natural minor blues. Another way to play natural minor tunes is to play fourth position which has the Aeolean mode which is identical to the natural minor scale.
So, a mode is just a type of scale.
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Hobostubs Ashlock
1194 posts
Nov 01, 2010
6:13 AM
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Thanks hvyj
that did explain it for me i got lost a little but for the most part i think you answered what i was wondering
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RyanMortos
871 posts
Nov 01, 2010
11:10 AM
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"Is 2 hours a lot? To me it's very little largely in part because I DO have a girlfriend who it would be unfair to for me to still be practicing my normal 4-5 hours a day" (MichaelAndrewLo).
Yeah, it is. Or maybe I'm jealous I don't have that free time. Or both.
I work 8 hour days (with a mandatory hour lunch) an hour away from home, so let's make that 11 hour days. I practice on my lunch at work which is usually 30-45mins. By the time I have dinner in the eve & get situated I have another 30 mins set aside for harmonica practice.
I guess if I could figure out what kind of things can be practiced on the road I could easily pick up another 2 hours a day! Anybody do this? They would have to be things that wouldn't involve a lot of thought or creativity- chugging with Sonny Terry or working on vibrato seem to be two good ones.
Dave Barrett's Bluesharmonica site has been a little weird for me so far. I started with the beginning lessons despite not being a beginner to harmonica, and not even entirely a beginner at tongue blocking. But I'm skipping some stuff like Bending 101, lol. I figure I'll be done the beginner study section in under a month and then have the organization of the site figured out by the time I get to the intermediate stuff.
hvyj, I work on the different harmonica scales as I can but haven't quite gotten to the point that I can jam in any position other then the first 3. Like you said, everyone teaches the first 3 so it's easier to pick those up first & quicker. I'm also learning music theory but don't have a full grasp on modes yet.
Hmmm, my schedule is flipped to nightshift this week and I'm all confused, I may be babbling.
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~Ryan
"I play the harmonica. The only way I can play is if I get my car going really fast, and stick it out the window." - Stephen Wright
Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
Contact:
My youtube account
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hvyj
778 posts
Nov 01, 2010
11:14 AM
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@Ryan Mortens: Just curious--what position do you use to jam if the tune is in a natural minor key?
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RyanMortos
872 posts
Nov 01, 2010
11:29 AM
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hvyj, I spend too much time in 2nd position, nearly all of it. I've only been playing 2 years though. I think if I was going to play something minor the first thing I would try to do is find the correct key for 3rd position which doesn't sound like it would be entirely correct for natural minor key?
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~Ryan
"I play the harmonica. The only way I can play is if I get my car going really fast, and stick it out the window." - Stephen Wright
Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
Contact:
My youtube account
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earlounge
198 posts
Nov 01, 2010
11:54 AM
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Hobo, it may be a little easier to think about Modes by key signature. Modes are scales based in the same key signature.
For example C major has no sharps or flats, so the Dorian mode is based in the same key signature (no sharps or flats), but it is played from the 2nd scale degree (D).
C Major - no sharps or flats
C-D-E^F-G-A-B^C
D Dorian - no sharps or flats
D-E^F-G-A-B^C-D
You play the same notes in the C major scale, but they sound different because of the relation of where the whole steps (-) and the half steps (^) fall.
E Phrygian - no sharps or flats
E^F-G-A-B^C-D-E
F Lydian mode - no sharps or flats
F-G-A-B^C-D-E^F
G Mixolydian mode - no sharps or flats
G-A-B^C-D-E^F-G
A Aeolian mode - no sharps or flats
A-B^C-D-E^F-G-A
B Locrian mode - no sharps or flats
B^C-D-E^F-G-A-B
The Half Steps (^) are always in between the same notes. When you move the root note then all the intervals shift which causes the differences in the sound of the Mode. Same KEY SIGNATURE of the C Major Scale, but different sound in each MODE.
Questions?
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hvyj
779 posts
Nov 01, 2010
2:32 PM
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The shifting location of the half steps is what makes modes useful. For example, in Dorian mode you have flat 3rd and flat 7th degrees of the scale.
In Aeolean mode you have flat 3rd, flat 6th and flat 7th which = natural minor scale.
So, when a tune is called, I pick a harp (position) where the available mode gives me most of the notes I need to play the tune. Then I bend for the rest of the notes i need and pray for the good judgment to lay out on passages i can't play.
@Ryan Mortens: You are probably already using modes without realizing it. Playing in second position gives you the Mixolydian mode which has a flat 7th. Then you bend for the blue 3d and the flat 5th to get the rest of the blue notes for the blues scale. Playing in third position you are most likely playing Dorian mode.
Most harp players use third position for all minor keys. But in third position you have flat 3d, flat 7th but MAJOR 6th. Natural minor scale has flat 3d, flat 7th and FLAT 6th. Fourth and Fifth position give you these notes.
There's other ways to do it, but I find it useful to select a position that gives me a mode that provides most of the notes I need to play a particular tune.
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tolga7t
108 posts
Nov 01, 2010
6:25 PM
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I tried making a strict schedule to follow, but when I felt like jamming rather than practicing a certain song, I ended up jamming. I think it'd be a good idea to check yourself about a month later: To see whether you are making progress while enjoying what you are doing!
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MichaelAndrewLo
474 posts
Nov 01, 2010
8:06 PM
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I have to say I got in about 2 hours 45 minutes today and just since yesterday this schedule is working wonderfully. Slow patient execution of one song for 30 minutes is completely manageable and knowing that I won't sit there for hours doing the same thing (knowing after 30 minutes I will move on to a "new" challenge) prevents me from becoming mindless (AKA "jamming").
@ Tolga7t one of the problems I was having was getting bored with my practice and not focusing so just playing mindlessly. I think that was due to all this overload of harp information that I have on my computer, and youtube, and this website. Focus and patience with a small set of material (pretty much any material will do) is better for development than trying to practice everything at once.
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Andrew Larson, R.N.
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Gig74
9 posts
Nov 04, 2010
5:07 PM
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@ RyanMortos
I too have long days and a drive to work as well as a wife and 3 amazing children. When I get home I generally get kidnapped by my little ones and they can only listen to harmonica nursery rymes for so long, so before i get home I tend to pop on some blues on the car radio, and when I pass a nice lay-by/parking spot I pull over and get a little practice done, (usually specific songs then a little, bending practice and improv).
@michael I'd love your practice schedule, it sound well thought out, you must have some real passion for learning.
@ everyone (i'm not sure of posting etiquete, sorry) I've only been playing six months and clearly do not have the same musical knowledge/skills that many on this thread have but I think practice time is what you make it, start with a purpose/goal and work towards it no matter if it's ten minutes or ten hours you have make the time count, (If it's important I tend to find at least a little time). oh and have fun, seriously what's not to enjoy about developing your own musical skills.
Last Edited by on Nov 04, 2010 5:47 PM
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Xpun3414
41 posts
Nov 04, 2010
11:02 PM
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I have no schedule.. I play when ever I can each day..it adds up to about 3/4 hours a day give or take. some days I do set aside a few hours to just practice every few days... It works for me..Im gettin better,so hey,what ever works,right.
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hvyj
798 posts
Nov 05, 2010
1:32 PM
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Re: MODES. Earlounge is absolutely correct when he explains that all modes of a particular scale have the same key signature as that scale. But, for harmonica purposes, I don't find that to be a particularly useful way to look at them.
Personally, I don't think of the Dorian mode of C as being a C scale. I think of it as a D scale with a flat third and flat seventh, because the first note of the mode (the note it starts on) is D. So, I think of a mode as being a scale in the key of the note that the mode starts on.
To give another example, key of C Aeolean Mode starts on A, so i think of it as an A scale with a flat third, flat sixth and flat seventh (which happens to be the natural minor scale.)
I'm self taught and have no formal music training, so what I am suggesting here may not be academically correct, but it is a practical way to look at it for purposes of selecting what harmonica position to use.
Last Edited by on Nov 05, 2010 1:34 PM
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RyanMortos
879 posts
Nov 05, 2010
8:35 PM
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hvyj,
Modes sound like theory semantics to me at the moment. I don't get their use or why building modified scales of other keys from another Ionian scale is helpful. You change the key you're playing in while all the notes stay the same so is Aeolian just a simplified major sounding 4th position (probably shouldnt have called it 4th position since it doesnt only apply to harmonica but oh well)?
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~Ryan
"I play the harmonica. The only way I can play is if I get my car going really fast, and stick it out the window." - Stephen Wright
Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
Contact:
My youtube account
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hvyj
799 posts
Nov 06, 2010
1:41 AM
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@RyanMortos: Oh, yeah--you can view modal names as semantics. Natural minor scale=Aeolean mode=4th position. All are essentially different names for the same thing.
Well, you don't NECESSARILY have to be playing Aeloean mode if you are playing in 4th position, but that's what one most commonly plays in 4th position. So, yeah, they are all different names for the same thing.
Aeolean is NOT major sounding. It is the natural minor scale. Modes are diatonic scales and Richter tuned harmonicas are diatonic instruments. So you can get a certain mode in each of the 7 most commonly played positions WITHOUT HAVING TO BEND. This is why modes are useful (some more so than others) to get a diatonic scale on the harp that has the particular notes you need to play a particular tune.
Say a tune ("All Along the Watchtower" for example) is in a natural minor key. Aeolean mode (4th position) gives you all the notes you need and Phrygian mode (5th position) gives you all the notes of the natural minor scale but one, so those two "modes" (positions) are good for playing tunes in a natural minor key. Using those modes or positions make it easy to play in a natural minor key because you will have most of the notes available without having to bend. Mode names are just shorthand for certain scale patterns that are useful for playing different types of material.
Now, every natural minor scale has a relative major scale. This means that a minor scale and its relative major scale have the same notes. You just start at a different point. If you start playing a do-re-mi scale (Ionian mode) on the 6th note of that scale(using la as do) the note sequence generates a natural minor scale (Aeolean mode). The notes of an A minor scale (for example) happen to be identical to the notes that are in a C major scale, just in a different order. So, FWIW, 4th position is actually a straight harp position because in 4th position you are playing the harp in the key it is in (you can play A minor on a C harp because the A natural minor scale and the C major scale happen to have the same notes--just played in a different order).
It is the changing locations of the half steps (as tabbed out by earlounge) that generate the different scale patterns we call modes.
Last Edited by on Nov 06, 2010 2:23 AM
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