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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Where to go next???
Where to go next???
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KingoBad
416 posts
Oct 01, 2010
10:28 AM
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So, spurred on by Buddha's comments in the Amanda's Roller coaster thread, I have been reflecting on my playing.
If I got up during amateur hour, I would be playing "little walter licks mixed with big walter horton" to quote Buddha. I might even throw a chrom in there, but for better or worse, that is what I would try to play like.
Now, I have been trying very hard to play like big and little Walter for some time now, but I can see where the limitations of that type of playing is. A mass regurgitation - one guy after another getting up on stage to sound somewhat like the same few guys. Perhaps playing very well, but not so creatively. I see others that I would like to play like - George Harmonica Smith or William Clarke. They are fresh to ME, but so were Big and Little Walter not too long ago.
Now may not be the time to separate myself from the study of these gentlemen, as they have a wonderful language to learn, and my chops are certainly very far from maxed out playing them. However, I always like to be experimenting with something new and different to keep things moving creatively.
So - I guess there are 2 questions (one multi part):
1. Can you play the same old licks and songs and keep it fresh, alive, and interesting? (not just the most polished rehash of the same old songs)
2. Where do you go to be on the edge of music and creativity? Can you still connect it to the blues? any suggestions?
Last Edited by on Oct 01, 2010 1:52 PM
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TNFrank
302 posts
Oct 01, 2010
10:34 AM
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Maybe if you take a harp in a key that you'd never think of playing and just improv on it a bit without trying to sound like anyone, just sound like yourself. That might give you a new perspective on things. I know in one of Adam's vids he said something about getting to a point where you go beyond the "teachers" and start sounding like yourself.
I can totally relate to this on a guitar level. I've stolen, er' I mean borrowed licks form a lot of different guitar players over the years but in the end I always sound like me no matter how hard I try to change it. I think in the end that's what we all should strive for, sounding like ourselves. That's one thing that makes music so great IMHO, we can all find our own little nitch where we'll fit in.
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Hohner Big River in Low F,G,A,Bb,D(on order)
Hohner Special 20 in Bb
Suzuki HarpMaster in C
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toddlgreene
1859 posts
Oct 01, 2010
10:38 AM
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Listen to instruments other than harp-guitar, keys, horns, whatever. You've obviously heard enough of the harp riffs to pick up and play them. Instead of falling into the same patterns and riffs you play, try playing what those other instruments are doing. Or sing/think of a melody that harmonizes with the vocals-try that. You can also try playing as a rhythm instrument instead of a lead/comping role. This will also help with your feel of the groove.
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Crescent City Harmonica Club
Todd L Greene, Co-Founder
Last Edited by on Oct 01, 2010 10:41 AM
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TNFrank
304 posts
Oct 01, 2010
10:43 AM
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Sax is an awesome instrument to transfer over to harp as is Fiddle if you'd care to listen to some Bluegrass. I was listening to the Blues Brothers version of "Sweet Home Chicago"(I LOVE that song) and my ear totally zoned in on the Sax. They're using an A harp with horns, can't figure that one out,LOL, but yep, the Sax totally got my attention. That is an awesome idea Todd.
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Hohner Big River in Low F,G,A,Bb,D(on order)
Hohner Special 20 in Bb
Suzuki HarpMaster in C
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toddlgreene
1860 posts
Oct 01, 2010
10:48 AM
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Additionally, although there's nothing wrong with emulating sax, trumpet, trombone, etc., don't close out the idea of listening to chorded instruments such as guitar or keyboards-work up your chord and octave playing on harp. Get that tongue-blocking to work for you, and don't play ONLY single notes. Also, work with double stops-two notes at once. Draw the 4, and allow the 5 draw to sound as well. A raw, raunchy mix of notes will result. That's just one example.
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Crescent City Harmonica Club
Todd L Greene, Co-Founder
Last Edited by on Oct 01, 2010 10:55 AM
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KingoBad
417 posts
Oct 01, 2010
11:06 AM
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Perhaps I am looking for a more philosophical answer.
I am not looking for a technique perfection here.
I am not looking to get more comfortable with improvisation.
I am looking for the edge of the musical experience where things are fresh, alive and creative, and whether that is still relevant and connected with the blues.
I AM working on all kinds of stuff as I mentioned before - to sound like the old guys. My question has more to do with where is the music going and where is it currently alive?
And are there any suggestions for where to go to be there? (seemingly wacked out answers are perfectly welcome as long as they are relevant)
Last Edited by on Oct 01, 2010 11:08 AM
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toddlgreene
1862 posts
Oct 01, 2010
11:31 AM
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Okay, I deal more in the practical than the philosophical, but I'll bite.
Answers to your questions in your original post:
1. No.
2. Jason Ricci.
If you're content playing what you're playing, screw what anyone else says. If not, look to those who have broken away from the norm. But, don't do what they already do-do what you think they might do next.
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Crescent City Harmonica Club
Todd L Greene, Co-Founder
Last Edited by on Oct 01, 2010 11:36 AM
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Littoral
103 posts
Oct 01, 2010
12:58 PM
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2nd Todds points, which I seem to do a lot. I do appreciate the original questions. My take, in no particular order so bear with me:
I've revered BW& LW for 30 years. I've stretched my boundaries plenty but I still consider myself firmly in the traditional. Proudly. I play a lot of simple percussion, horn lines and bass lines to support making good MUSIC. I want the listener to enjoy the music. My critque of a lot of what seems to be in vogue around here is that it's interesting but outside of studying it I'll never listen to it. Ricci is a prime example. Bless him because I'm copping everything from him I can get.
William Clarke, I think, worked to solve the same issues. We appreciate his answers. There's lot's of examples of recent players who worked the familiar territory to make things fresh. The results, like Kim Wilson on Ludella, are my answers to the question. And that's what I like to listen to.
Oh, I love learning T-Bone Walker lines and he mimiced horn lines and Clapton copied LW. I'm trying to work out Take 5, just to contradict everything I've said.
Last Edited by on Oct 01, 2010 1:09 PM
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hvyj
665 posts
Oct 02, 2010
7:19 AM
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My suggestion: Play like yourself and don't necessarily play the harmonica like it's a harmonica. Practice scales and understand the relationship of scale tones to chord tones. Practice enough blues so when you play you can play in the style of the blues idiom when you are playing blues material.
Then PLAY WHAT YOU FEEL. Don't replicate what your favorite players have played. Play what YOU hear in YOUR head. Inevitably, some of that will include ideas you've copped from your favorite players, but put it all together in a way that makes what you play an original expression rather than an imitation. If you can get around on the harp well enough to make music you hear in your head come out of the harp, you don't need to imitate. Make what you play your own expression of what you feel as you listen to what the other musicians are laying down. FWIW.
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Helix
55 posts
Oct 02, 2010
8:04 AM
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Buddha's comments could be taken with a grain of salt...or is there something to it?
I suppose there is something to it if you honestly do play Little Walter's and Big walter's harp parts.
Sounds like you are ready to move on.
Kingo...(Danny)...you need to change the way you practice.
Try this.....instead of playing a tune that you have a mental memory of harp from another harp player....choose a song that grabs you but has no harp on the recording and one that you have never heard with harp work..Play along with the new song and create your own harp part. Use the melody and /or lyrics to guide you as you create the new harp work. Eventually...if you work at it you will forget all of those "stock harp solos" and you will develop your own style and create original harp work even on old familiar material.
I think perhaps Buddha is exaggerating and he probably lumps everybody that plays with a tight cup on their bullet mic into that same category regardless of whether or not they are playing original material.
That in itself is finer point and I pretty much agree with Chris on that....guys that play with the mic choked tight all the time get boring really fast IMO.
So, unless you think that heavily distorted style is the only way to go....try keeping your playing more acoustic by leaving your hands open on the bullet mic a lot.
Stop by the live chat(you know the one) sometime and I will try to elaborate and help you.
.V
P.S. To answer your numbered questions:
#1- No
#2- The edge of creativity is not found by listening to Jason Ricci or anyone else....that edge is found within that round thing between your ears.
Last Edited by on Oct 02, 2010 8:11 AM
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TNFrank
311 posts
Oct 02, 2010
8:13 AM
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I guess I'm lucky in a way because I've not listened to a lot of pure harp playing music so I've not been(for lack of a better term) "Brain Washed" by someone's style. Most of the harp playing that I've heard has been in the context of Classic Rock or General Blues style music like the stuff on The Blues Brothers or My Name is Earl, very suttle stuff where the harp isn't really the main instrument. As far as music in general, I look at any instrument as a means to an end. It's a Tool used to express thoughts and ideas so with a bit of training I can express myself on just about anything once I get a feel for it. I hear the sound in my head then translate it to guitar, bass, harp or whatever. The thoughts and ideas are what matter, the instrument of expression is secondary.
Maybe you need to step back from Blues altogether and listen to something you never even though about listening to like Bluegrass or Hip Hop. Something that'll give you a totally different perspective on music, then you can come back to the Blues with Fresh Ears and get a feel for it all over again. Sometimes when you get stuck in a rut you need to move off in a totally different path in order to get to where you want to be.
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Hohner Big River in Low F,G,A,Bb,D(on order)
Hohner Special 20 in Bb
Suzuki HarpMaster in C
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mercedesrules
28 posts
Oct 02, 2010
8:16 AM
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.....You've probably had the blues; write some songs.
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shanester
255 posts
Oct 02, 2010
8:21 AM
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Shane
1shanester
"Keep it coming now, keep it coming now,
Don't stop it no don't stop it no no don't stop it no don't stop it no no..."
- KC and the Sunshine Band
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TNFrank
312 posts
Oct 02, 2010
8:42 AM
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@Shanester, "Loofa Time",LMAO, that was funny. Very Different, You have a "My Name is Earl" kind of vibe to your harp playing. I liked it.
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Hohner Big River in Low F,G,A,Bb,D(on order)
Hohner Special 20 in Bb
Suzuki HarpMaster in C
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hvyj
668 posts
Oct 02, 2010
8:45 AM
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Another thought: What you DON"T play is as powerful as what you do play.
Harp players who reproduce tried and true LW/BW and other often imitated blues licks are a dime a dozen. What you don't play makes what you do play more interesting...and more original.
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barbequebob
1273 posts
Oct 02, 2010
10:05 AM
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I've always believed that to understand any of your musical heroes, go directly to what they listened to and learned from and so you get a better understanding of where they're coming from and then build on it.
Quite frankly, too many harp players are GUILTY of doing nothing except listening exclusively to other harp players and nothing else, which is the wrong thing to do. Just about every influential player has listened, learned, and adapted and then expanded upon the things they've listened to from other instruments wheras the average player won't do that.
When I hear players saying this one silly statement, "it don't sound like a harmonica," if you stop talking such trash and listen to where their favorite players got their stuff from, you will EASILY see how they've listened, learned, and adapted, something the average player NEVER does.
LW got a ton of stuff from listening to jump blues and bib band jazz sax players as well as trumpet/trobone players as well. Heck, in "Roller Coaster," he's throwing in Illinois Jacquet lines, and that's just one example.
I've already been down the road where I learned both Walters not only note for note, but tone for tone and dynamic for dynamic, but at some point, you gotta break away from that and learn to think for yourself musically.
By listening to their sources for inspiration, I can give you their feel without needing to play it note for note, and in the process, I've been able to sound like myself.
When I hear players who are good at doing something note for note, I'll listen to it once, say OK, and then I don't want to hear it because they're expressing their heroes, their heroes thinking, but it tells me musically they can't think for themselves.
I'm long past the having to play it note for note stage by understand how those players think musically more than well enough that I can give you the sound and feel, yet always sounds like myself, and too many players don't have enough drive to strive for that.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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Joe_L
676 posts
Oct 02, 2010
11:03 AM
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Much of what Bob said is true, but very few ever really master the Little Walter and Big Walter sounds. Tone for tone. Dynamic for dynamic. It tends to take more time than a couple of years worth of playing.
If you think you've got that stuff down, listen to other players. There are a lot of players to explore. If you're a Blues player, there are a ton of great players to listen to and steal from.
People rarely steal from Junior Wells, Carey Bell or Little Mac Simmons. Those guys had some great songs. They had unique phrasing and delivery. People rarely steal from James Cotton, too. Great tunes, great delivery, great tone and phrasing.
He once told me, "listen to everyone and play what moves you"
It's good advice. If you play what moves you, you'll have fun and you'll be more motivated to do it right. If you try to play something you don't feel, you'll be less likely to pull it off convincingly.
If you like Little Walter and Big Walter tunes, play the shit out of them, but don't do it note for note. Play the first twelve bars that way and take off from there.
Finally, don't forget Blues is primarily a vocal music. Work on singing. Nonstop harp playing gets boring fast.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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Helix
56 posts
Oct 02, 2010
11:45 AM
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I agree with all that these two said and I want to ask a question....
Am I the only one that thinks Buddha makes it all a bit too narrow?...I mean...surely there are infinite licks and combination of notes that neither Big or Lil' ever played....I feel for instance that William Clarke used his own licks for the most part even though he is playing blues.
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dudegizmo
5 posts
Oct 02, 2010
12:00 PM
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My strategy and I have not got to the point which I can say if it works or not... Is never to play this player or that player licks...
What I am doing is culturing their music through listening absorbing the parts I like from each of them...
on the harp I practice scales and from memory melodic tunes to enhance my understanding of the instrument... and...
I do improvisation sessions with and without backing track which I try to make them feel in the spirit of something... so for example in this practice session I was going for the Ray Charles feeling... so I got my self a backing track and improvised for an hour.. keeping the parts I liked and thinking on things I would have wanted to play... If I can play it... well it is practice time... if not I record the idea and work on it... I am going for the if I can sing it I want to be able to play it skill... and I definitely can hum things I am dreaming on having the ability to play...
I hope that this way I will create my own sound based on influence and not actual copying...
Some one said that music is a hearing art, even when you are playing and I strongly believe in that... So I am trying to be able to hear what I want to play like...
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Guy Peled
Links:
- My harmonica Facebook page.
- My Youtube channel.
Last Edited by on Oct 02, 2010 5:48 PM
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barbequebob
1274 posts
Oct 02, 2010
12:19 PM
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William Clarke has also quoted from other harp players as well as from sax players, and what he plays on "Fishing Blues" is a direct quote of Jazzman Charlie Parker's "Yardbird Suite" and his teacher was George Harmonica Smith.
I have learned and borrowed from many different players, not only both Walters. but both Sonny Boys, Cotton, Wells, George Harmonica Smith, Slim Harpo, Lazy Lester, Papa Lightfoot, Jerry McCain, horn players like Jo Houston, Red Prysock, guitarists like T-Bone Walker.
Remember, even if you learn note for note, at some point, you have to avoid it and put things together so that you sound like yourself.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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shanester
256 posts
Oct 02, 2010
1:11 PM
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Thank you TNFrank! That is a great compliment.
That song was in my head first then I figured out how to play it.
I actually have a second verse that wraps it up nicely. I should upload the current evolution soon.
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Shane
1shanester
"Keep it coming now, keep it coming now,
Don't stop it no don't stop it no no don't stop it no don't stop it no no..."
- KC and the Sunshine Band
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Littoral
105 posts
Oct 03, 2010
6:01 AM
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Themes are repeated throughout these replies. Again, I found T-Bone to be a gold mine for phrasing and because he copied horn lines from another gold mine. His scales and chords are very accessible.
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