9000
21 posts
Sep 29, 2010
7:55 PM
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What experience can you guys share about equipment for REALLY loud situations such as a rockin' blues band? It seems that several of the pros go with the big 6/10 HarpKings but they don't seem to be readily available new or used. So what do you consider to be the next best thing?
Thanks!
Jay
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Greg Heumann
797 posts
Sep 29, 2010
7:59 PM
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Fender Super Reverb, tubed for harp.
Sonny Jr Avenger - Cuts through really well. Line out to patch into the PA if needed.
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/Greg
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htownfess
187 posts
Sep 29, 2010
8:40 PM
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4x10 Fender Blues DeVille RI is probably the loudest thing you can buy off the showroom floor. The tone is not distinguished, but then the finer points of tone are probably wasted in that situation. If you really want silly headroom, set it atop an 8 ohm 4x10 or 2x10 extension cabinet and blare away. Use earplugs onstage with that band.
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captin beef harp
35 posts
Sep 29, 2010
9:03 PM
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a meteor amp is LOUD and full of tone
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ZackPomerleau
1141 posts
Sep 29, 2010
10:13 PM
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I have an HG50 and that thing on 2 is too loud for most gigs! hahaha.
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5F6H
299 posts
Sep 30, 2010
1:45 AM
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+1 for the Blues Deville (even the Blues Deluxe packs quite a punch with the right speaker). Brown Concert/Super Reverb/Tweed Bassman can all be made as loud as anything on the market, you need to check power tube voltage on individual amps though (not just buy an amp off Ebay that looks like your buddy's), you might find 130v difference between 2 SRs! I would normally tube a SR for more gain, not less, by subbing the 12AT7 PI tube for a 12AX7 & tweak the PI circuit if needed, the loudest Concerts I have heard all had 12AX7s. Lower mu tubes work great for some mic/amp combinations, but tolex Fenders (& De Ville/Blues Deluxe) don't tolerate low mu preamp tubes as well as the tweeds.
Some reissue tweed bassmans & the Kendrick 2410 can run well over 500vdc when biased to suit, more voltage than a lot of boutique amps with "period correct" voltages (typically around 470-480vdc with GZ34 & 35mA per tube).
Basically, the more volts the better for volume, up to around 530vdc, solid state rectifier too.
BF Twin Reverb deserves a mention, don't overlook Dual Showman heads which can be mated with 4x10" 4ohm cabs with 4x6L6, or 4x10" 8ohm cabs with 2xEH KT90.
The louder you want to get, the more you might sacrifice warmth & an amp that sounds good at lower volume (being able to sub in a tube rectifier can help here).
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hvyj
662 posts
Sep 30, 2010
4:28 AM
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Fender Super Reverb tubed down for harp, and with an unbalanced phase inverter tube (12DW7). Btw, if you rock one of these back on its tilt back legs the tone sort of opens up and it seems to sound even louder.
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kudzurunner
1892 posts
Sep 30, 2010
4:37 AM
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1) Fender Twin. First time I saw Butterfield in NYC, in a small club in 1985, he was playing a Twin. Magic Dick also used one, I believe, when I saw him back in 1975 in the Rockland Community College gym. And I've seen Kim playing a pair of OLD Twins--early to mid-fifties, I think; cream-colored--on a big stage gig. Each player was using a different mic and I'm sure the tubes were set up differently, but that's three top players, playing very loud.
2) Bassman + Champ, with the Champ miked through the PA. Mark Wenner did this and got an amazing (and loud) sound.
Last Edited by on Sep 30, 2010 4:38 AM
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walterharp
470 posts
Sep 30, 2010
9:28 AM
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jason ricci was playing a harp gear 50 a year ago when i saw him.. went to the bathroom and it was out the club door and down a hall 100 yards, with the door closed, and his harp was till cutting through just fine, could hear every note. that is why i bring ear plugs to shows so i can actually hear what is being played
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6SN7
86 posts
Sep 30, 2010
9:45 AM
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My SJ Cruncher lined out into the input of my SJ410 is killa.
Thanks Greg for the tip.
what good is a HG 50 if you can't turn it pass 2?
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Joe_L
668 posts
Sep 30, 2010
3:23 PM
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Fender Twin Reverb. Blackface or silverface. Very loud. I've seen several guys use a red knob Twin to good effect, too. If you can play, they can be quite toneful.
A Super Reverb can be head splitting loud, too. Those seemed to be the standard, before Fender reissued the 59 Bassman.
If you are a large man and have a truck, you could try to track down a Super Six Reverb. A 4x10 Bassman Ten can get very loud, too. You can pick these up at decent prices. Most of the original owners have developed back problems and are getting too old to be lifting them.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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Diggsblues
543 posts
Oct 01, 2010
5:04 AM
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If your gonna use a fender swap out the tubes.
A lot less feed back headaches. Mic it
this will insure at least the people
will hear you.
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Emile "Diggs" D'Amico a Legend In His Own Mind
How you doin'
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Ev630
757 posts
Oct 01, 2010
5:31 AM
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I'll bet Wilson played those transitional Twins with stock tube configs.
I know a lot of guys on boards talk up changing tubes, but often it de-balls the amp.
Last Edited by on Oct 01, 2010 5:33 AM
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Littoral
101 posts
Oct 01, 2010
7:12 AM
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Just because it's my favorite: Tan Concert (not brown)
Also saw Kim with the two Twins -Cream/Oxblood -he sure sure had all the power he needed. (early 60's amp, by the way)
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Ev630
759 posts
Oct 01, 2010
7:30 AM
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Littoral, I had a Brown (63). Great amp, no tube subs.
What makes the Tan different? I don't believe I've ever seen one in the flesh.
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5F6H
300 posts
Oct 01, 2010
7:35 AM
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EV630 wrote: "I'll bet Wilson played those transitional Twins with stock tube configs. I know a lot of guys on boards talk up changing tubes, but often it de-balls the amp."
In 99% cases I have to agree, especially regarding tolex Fenders, subbing a 12AX7 for a 12AY7 in a tweed bassman drops mu to around 40%, doing the same thing ina tolex amp in V1/V2 (preamp stage) drops mu to 19%! I'm not saying it never works, people & mics all sound different, so it's always worth a go, but such severe dropping of gain can often soften the tone & lose 'edge'.
In a loud situation, intelligibility, clarity & note definition count as much as (sometimes more than) outright power. A super loud mush is no good to anyone. All the guys I know who use tolex Fender style circuits use 12AX7 accross the board (preamp & PI), subbing the PI can often give a warmer tone but not as much/more power. It's often more effective to look at reducing gain by rebiasing, tweaking preamp voltage, split load plate resistor, or tweaking volume pot value by tacking a resistor from vol pot wiper to ground to calm ramping issues.
A lined out amp, with a dummy load instead of the speaker (killing feedback issues on stage & allowing you to use the stage monitors) will often go unfeasibly loud, irrespective of wattage. Be aware, that tube set up when lined out might not be as optimal as when a speaker is connected, sometimes a tighter rectifier, or higher mu preamp (for better definition) might be useful if going into a PA.
Last Edited by on Oct 01, 2010 7:42 AM
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5F6H
301 posts
Oct 01, 2010
7:40 AM
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There were 2 shades of brown tolex Concert, "pinky brown" (early, often with the maroon/oxblood grill) and a more chocolatey brown (later, often wheat grill), I wouldn't call either 'tan'. There is not one particular model of Brown concert that is definitely louder than the others, comes down to individual amp (I've seen a lot of Concerts).
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Ev630
760 posts
Oct 01, 2010
8:04 AM
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Mark - when I was talking about guys on boards who sub stuff out (because, you know, they read about it and that's what you do), I didn't have you in mind. Unlike a lot of guys, you actually know how this affects the circuit, headroom, etc.
However the subbing I agree with 100% is to change the rectifier to tube, and pos'n one to a 12ay7 on the Bassman RI.
But that's because that returns the amp to the way God intended it...
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5F6H
302 posts
Oct 01, 2010
8:34 AM
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Hi Drew,
No, I didn't think that you had me, specifically, in mind, just felt it was worth fleshing out what goes on "under the hood" with respect to the 2 different topologies.
For general info, I group the DeVille & Blues Deluxe along with the tolexes, rather than classic tweeds, because of the lack of a cathode follower & how the stages are arranged.
For guys who can't/don't want to solder & don't have anyone nearby to help out, tube subbing might be the only option. But I liken it to trying to make your car go faster just by bolting on bigger carbs, not taking into account the whole picture e.g. porting, timings & exhaust etc.
Heretic that I am, I often like a GE5751 in V1 on a 59/60 tweed bassman, especially with a SS rectifier...(OK, OK, I'll stop now Drew, I can hear your teeth gnashing from here!) ;-)
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Ev630
761 posts
Oct 01, 2010
2:00 PM
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No, no, a 5751 is certainly an acceptable way to go! Not as silly as an 12AT7.
;)
I'm not totally opposed to tube subs. I just think some guys I've met at jams do it before they learn how to work with the amp. They give up in frustration because they don't know how to work with the controls. "Gee, maybe you should take some of the mids out of your signal..." LOL.
And I know that when it comes to vintage amps, guys like Wilson, Estrin, Guyger and Portnoy aren't popping tubes.
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Greg Heumann
801 posts
Oct 01, 2010
2:41 PM
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Playing an amp with too much gain is just like driving a car with a really touchy accelerator. No more power when your foot is to the floor, just a lot harder to drive smoothly. When the onset of feedback is rapid you have to LOWER your volume a lot to avoid it. When you have less gain you get a smoother, easier approach that is very easy to control so you can actually get a bit MORE volume.
I don't have experience with a lot of the amps 5F6H was talking about, but in the limited number of "3 12AX7 Tube" preamp fender amps I've played with, tubing them down makes a huge difference in playability without sacrificing tone.
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/Greg
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5F6H
303 posts
Oct 01, 2010
4:01 PM
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Greg wrote: "I don't have experience with a lot of the amps 5F6H was talking about, but in the limited number of "3 12AX7 Tube" preamp fender amps I've played with, tubing them down makes a huge difference in playability without sacrificing tone."
Well, if you tube down the tone changes (as does frequency response & envelope around the note) as the new tube has a different mu, operating voltage & bias point...none of this is a bad thing, as long as the resulting sound works for you (I don't want to sound like I'm telling anyone that they're "wrong", there's more than one way to skin a cat though.
To get an easier to play amp and the same tone as stock, you can either adjust the vol pot sweep (new pot with a softer taper - e.g. a pal's Victoria 45410 has to be set to "5.5/6" to be at the same setting as his RI 59 set to "4"), or, add a resistor from vol pot's centre tab to LH tab/ground to tame the sweep (might be anywhere from a couple of tens of kilo-ohms upwards, a bit of measuring can help here). A lower value pot, like 100K or 250K, on it's own is not a good idea as you get less series resistance in the signal and more feedback at comperable settings due to increased hi end...you would need to add another series resistor feeding the pot to restore original tone (e.g. replace a 1meg pot with a 250K pot and a 470K resistor in place of the plain wire feeding the RH tab).
A split load plate resistor at the first stage can be quite transparent if you don't go mad, try 56K & 56K in place of 100K single plate resistor to start with.
Both of these methods can calm down a hot amp, with reasonable transparency, whilst retaining original tube set up & tone...for odd cases where tube subs don't do the trick (obviously can be used in addition to tube subs if desired, but with the resistor on pot method, I'd aim to make sure that you still have 4-500K between wiper & RH tab on a 1Meg pot).
Some cheaply made amps are good candidates for tube subbing, if access to parts & mods is difficult/expensive, plus some mics with a very high output pretty well demand subs...but what works with one mic can be 'no go' with another & lots of players carry very different character mics with them (bane of my life, that and guitar players who come to try an amp before taking it home..."Er is that the mic/gtr you usually use?". "No.." they say, "I just brought it along because it's new & pretty/fits in the car easier, my usual one is at home..." etc! :-)
Going back to what Drew said about "pro" players, I know a guy who watched one of them set up before a gig with a pick up amp, no tube subbing, the guy just went through a bag of a dozen or so mics until he found one that worked well enough with the amp supplied...just another approach.
Last Edited by on Oct 01, 2010 4:04 PM
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Littoral
104 posts
Oct 01, 2010
7:23 PM
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5F6H, Yes, pinky brown is the tan I'm refering to. It's early, 1/60 with the reverse control panel. A good friend of mine has a simillar Bandmaster he always refered to as tan -also reverse panel.
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walterharp
473 posts
Oct 01, 2010
9:03 PM
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It is an interesting point that Mark (5f6h) makes, concordant with bbq bob, and my recent approach to my bassman clone. The low gain tubes take a bit of the spank out of the amp, but the volume sweep is harder to control. The suggestion of the bridging resistor on the volume knob is a new one in my book and worth investigating. Plus, keeping the higher gain tubes in the preamp, to my ear, gives more high end cut. And since this thread started with how to deal with loud situations, that would be consistent with that too.
but hey, what do i know, one mic switch and some nerves, and my amp tone fell apart the gig before last :-(
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Ev630
762 posts
Oct 01, 2010
10:01 PM
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Mark - the brief case with 6 or 8 mics is how I work with an unknown amp. It's also the way that Wilson works.
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ZackPomerleau
1142 posts
Oct 01, 2010
10:50 PM
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6S, the volume depends on the mic and the tone controls. Having them down can make the amp break-up even earlier. Two is fine for a lot of gigs but I've gotten it up to six before. Now I use a lot of pedals so I don't worry so much about volume.
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9000
25 posts
Oct 02, 2010
7:08 PM
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This has been a great dialog. Appreciate everyone's comments. I've never run 2 amps together before so last night in a pretty large club with lots of patrons I ran a '60 Brown Concert and my Meteor both into my wireless receiver. Of course, I didn't turn them up all the way but it worked great! It allowed me to play in a much more relaxed manner and still have the cut and volume necessary. The cleaner tone of the Concert and the more "broken up" tone of the Meteor combined into a fabulous tone that I really like. Now if I can just find someone to load those amps in and out of the gig...No wonder Kim Wilson is so buff.
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Joe_L
677 posts
Oct 02, 2010
10:43 PM
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9000 - do you need to be louder than those two ampS together?
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The Blues Photo Gallery
Last Edited by on Oct 02, 2010 10:56 PM
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9000
27 posts
Oct 03, 2010
9:26 AM
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@ Joe L: absolutely not. However, when I run them together with one of Greg's volume controls I can really relax and pay attention to what I'm playing rather than worrying about being heard. Most of the time I'm only playin' at about half of what they're capable of but I'm movin' a lot of air with 6-10's and a 12". This is the first time I've tried it and it gives me a little insight into why some of the pros frequently use 2 amps. I'm trying to find more ways to get the job done. That was the purpose of the thread. All the best to everyone!
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