He has tracks posted by modes...Locrian, Phrygian, Mixolydian, Lydian, Ionian, Dorian, and Aeolian.
I have picked up from Buddha and hvyj that you can play all of these modes in a position that will have minimal or no bends and no overbending.
I like to play chromatically on a diatonic but I'm finding this stuff more important as I learn beyond the blues.
I found this too.
1.First position is a major scale. The mode name for the major scale is called Ionian.
2.Second position is a major scale variant with a flatted 7th. The mode is called Mixolydian.
3.Third position is a minor scale. There is more than one minor scale, and the mode for this one is called Dorian.
4.Fourth position is the natural minor scale whose mode is called Aeolian.
5.Fifth position is another type of minor scale. The mode for this one is called Phrygian.
6.Sixth position has a sort of major scale feel and is called Locrian.
7.Twelfth position, also called First Flat, has a major scale type feel and is called Lydian.
When someone says a minor key that leaves 3 options.
What I need from you people that know this stuff is how to tell? I can hear a song and easily find the key, but I'm not always sure about the mode. Any tips?
Here is the track in Phrygian mode in which you can best use an F harp in 5th position. 2,5,8 blow is the root note. Hope this helps someone like me that is trying to learn.
The scale names are all Greek to me.LOL ---------- Harmonicas: Hohner Big River in Low F,G,A,Bb Hohner Special 20 in Bb Hohner Golden Melody in C Suzuki HarpMaster in C Suzuki FolkMaster in D,E,F
As a practical matter, you use third position when the tune is in a minor key with a flat third, flat seventh but has a MAJOR SIXTH. (This is called Dorian minor).
If the tune is in a minor key with a flat third, flat seventh and FLAT SIXTH use either fourth or fifth position. (This is called natural minor.)
Now the difference between Aeolaen (true natural minor) and Phrygian is that while both modes have a flat third, flat sixth and flat seventh, Phrygian also has a flat second (draw 5 and draw 9 in fifth position). But if you avoid these notes, you can play natural minor in fifth position with no problem, which is nice because it's easier to play with blues phrasing in fifth position than in fourth position.
If the melody of a natural minor tune makes frequent use of the second, you may need to play it in fourth position, or you can bend 2 draw and 9 blow a half step to get major second in fifth position. The second is generally not an important note in blues, so it's usually very practical (and fairly easy) to play natural minor key blues in fifth position.
Rule of thumb: You need to know if the minor tune has a MAJOR SIXTH or a FLAT SIXTH in order to intelligently select what harp (position) to use. So, when a minor key gets called just ask the guitar player or keyboard player if it's dorian minor or natural minor, or, if they are unfamiliar with those terms, keep it simple and ask them if the tune has a major sixth or a minor (flat) sixth.
Btw, a harmonic minor has a flat third, flat sixth and MAJOR seventh. You can play harmonic minor in fourth position by bending draw 6 a half step and draw 3 a step and a half to get major seventh. But this may be TMI if you are just starting to work on minor key playing.
Last Edited by on Sep 27, 2010 1:02 PM
Oversimplified formula for playing natural minor Blues in fifth position: Avoid draw 5 and draw 9 and don't bend anything but draw 3. There's actually more to it than just this, but if you follow this oversimplified formula it's actually hard to hit a really bad note. FWIW.
Good info hvyj! I guess it is just a matter of deveolping my ear. We have all those music genres on TV and I like to randomly turn one on and see if I can find the best position and jam along. I had no idea the heavy metal guys had to know all these modes.
I was able to play "something" on the 7 posiition/modes backing tracks the guy posted and they do have different vibes.
So I guess no need to learn every mode/scale in every position, but they all have one or two that work best.
I have learned the blues scale in these positions to practice overbends and found a couple of useful tips. ..
If you want to play some high end blues, you're not into overbending, and want something a little more minor sounding than first positon...try 4th position blues scale on holes 6 to 10. The only bend is blow bend 8 for the flat 5th and you can play a lot of stuff without it. The scale in 6 draw...7 blow...8 draw...8 blow bend...8 blow, 9 blow ..and 10 draw. Also, if you like to do octave splits that are blue try 5th position. I sometimes use this for backing. I wish there was a giant list somewhere of the top popular songs and what mode they are in.
@harpdude61: Not all tunes are in modes and some tunes use different modes for different parts of the same tune.
Also, some tunes, like "Riders on the Storm" by the Doors are dorian minor, but you have to play the dorian mode of the I chord and the dorian mode of the IV chord for the tune to sound right. This tune is nominally in E dorian minor so you have to use a D harp in third position to play E dorian minor on the I and V chords, but you also need to use a G harp in third position on the IV change since you have to play in the key of A dorian minor over the IV chord.
I'm actually pretty good at playing in minor keys, but this tune was driving me crazy. Sounded awful if I played a D harp all the way through, so I tried a C harp in 5th position, which sounded better, but it wasn't right, either. Anyway, eventually the bandleader who has a Masters in Music told me what to play, which required me to use two harps. After i started using two harps, the tune finally sounded right.
Another dorian minor tune that requires the use of 2 harmonicas is Miles Davis' "So What." It's 16 bars of D dorian minor followed by 8 bars of Eb dorian minor, and then back to D dorian minor. So you need to use a C harp in third position and then a Db harp in third position, and then back to a C harp. Again, i would never have figured this out on my own, but another band leader who also has a Masters in Music told me what to do.
The point, however, is that because i was familiar with modes and have a basic working knowledge of music theory, i was able to communicate with these guys who have advanced degrees in music and understand what they were telling me. And I understood my instrument well enough to know what to do in order to play what they were telling me to play, even though i had to use two harmonicas in order to do it. Incidentally, i play no other instruments and I have no formal music training, but it's not really all that difficult to learn this stuff.
From the content of your your posts in this thread, it's obvious that you have figured this stuff out well enough to have a handle on it. It's the foundation of being able to play different kinds of material competently. I love the blues, but there's also other very cool styles of music that sound good on harmonica. And in order to sound good, you don't always need to play the harmonica like it's a harmonica--play it like it's a musical instrument. Don't just copy harp licks or blues riffs. That's why I sometimes make the comment that certain well known and technically skilled contemporary harmonica players have no more creativity than your average Elvis impersonator.
Btw, a very useful thing to do is learn the major pentatonic and minor pentatonic scales in different positions. You can click on my user profile for tab. These 2 scales are extremely useful for soloing and improvising over a wide variety of material. If you know these two scales and the blues scale you can get a whole lot of mileage out of them if you know which one of them to use over which tunes. FWIW.
Last Edited by on Sep 27, 2010 3:03 PM
Very interesting post hvyj (is it heavy J or something?) I appreciate your comment about playing like an instrument. I played at a jam the other night and someone told me I sounded more like a horn. I took it as a compliment. One harp player told me he never goes above hole six....said there was no need...lol
I guess this is why I enjoy Jason's stuff so much. It sounds to me on some songs like he is playing 3rd position in modes besides Dorian.
Learning all this stuff is great and I too am a blues lover first and foremost. It just sucks when you kick ass on the one or two blues songs the cover band knows and they want you to stay and play more but the knowledge and confidence is not there for other genres.
This thread deserves thread of the week or something. Some very good discussion on things I've been trying to pick up. I'm definitely going to try to play along with the tracks.
I need to rest and reread this thread. I didn't think harmonica positions were equal to modes but maybe I'm remembering something I heard wrong.
----------
~Ryan
"I play the harmonica. The only way I can play is if I get my car going really fast, and stick it out the window." - Stephen Wright
Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
Hey Ryan, What got me interested in this mode stuff was that all these modes can be played with the first position scale...simply start on a different note of the scale. So I knew I had that down. The fun is going to be learning to play thru the changes of a song and figuring out which mode is best for what. These backing tracks are a big help. I'll post the position and root notes for each vid. Seems like you can start on the root and blow draw up or down and feel that something belongs or not.
I'll just set these up for anyone that wants to try.
6th position ....Locrian Use a Eb harp...start on 3 draw and play to 7 draw. No bends. This is the easiest one draw blow draw blow draw blow draw draw.
5th position...F harp.....Phrygian....5 blow to 9 blow and 2 blow is root as well...2/5 blow split is good to start this one
Myxolidian 2nd position...C harp....2 draw, 6 blow, and 9 blow are root
12 position... Lydian D harp....5 draw 9 draw 2 draw one step bend.
Ionian 1st position..1,4,7,10 BLOW! A harp
Dorian...3rd position D harp...1,4 8, draw
Aeolian...E flat harp...4th position 6 draw 10 draw and 3 draw bent one step
I hope this is helpful to some of you.
Last Edited by on Sep 27, 2010 5:45 PM
@harpdude61: FWIW, when I have to choose what position to play in, i pick a harp (position) that puts me in a mode that has most of the notes i need in order to play that particular tune. Then I bend to get the other notes I need and pray that I have the good sense to lay out if the tune has passages i just can't play.
Never be afraid to lay out. It's important to let the music breathe.
Btw, i happen to think that the inability to "build" chords on a diatonic harmonica is more of a limiting factor than the lack of a full 12 tone chromatic scale. We are stuck with the fairly primitive chords that are available on the instrument. These chords only work for certain kinds of music and, for the overwhelming most part, they usually don't work at all in positions above third. So...in my experience, you are more likely to be able to handle a greater variety of more sophisticated material if you don't play a lot of chords. This is one reason that I only play ET harps.
In my experience, if one is playing in positions above third, one is likely to sound out of tune playing compromise tuned or JI tuned harps because of all the flat notes. I find myself perplexed by players who claim that chords don't sound as in tune on ET harps. That may be true, but, frankly, i am more concerned about being in tune with the rest of the band than I am about being in tune with myself. And, I don't play a lot of chords anyway. I'm sure not everyone will agree with this, but i think i sound better (more in tune) playing ET. FWIW.
@RyanMortos: "need to rest and reread this thread. I didn't think harmonica positions were equal to modes but maybe I'm remembering something I heard wrong."
Harmonica positions are NOT "equal to" modes. Just because you are playing in a particular position does not necessarily mean you are playing in a particular mode. BUT, as harpdude61 points out, each of the 7 most commonly used positions relates to a certain mode. This means that if you playing in that position it is possible to play the corresponding mode somewhere on that harp without having to bend.
@harpdude61: Yeah, "hvyj" is a contraction of Heavy J. I remember a thread several months ago about the Mark Hummel Harmonica Blowout. A regular poster was raving about how Rod Piazza was the most creative because he actually went into the upper register (above hole 6) on one of the licks he played. I'm serious. Go figure...
Frankly, I wish i could play as well as Rod and the rest of those guys play. But if I could play as well as those guys play I sure as hell wouldn't be playing what those guys play.
Last Edited by on Sep 27, 2010 7:00 PM
I use modes to remember scales. Meaning, I associate a "position" with a mode (for seven keys, anyways) and then think of different scales in that position in variants of the mode.
So for example, 3rd is the Dorian mode. When I want it to be bluesy, I can bend the 6 draw and note play the blow 5 or 7 draw. When I want it to play the natural minor, I remember to ob the 6, etc.
When playing 12th, you can pretty much just play the Lydian mode with a flat 3 draw.
There is really no wrong or right way to think about a lot of this stuff. It comes down to whatever makes sense to you. If you can get the modes down, it becomes very easy to navigate other positions/scales, IMO. ---------- Mike VHT Special 6 Amp for Harp Blog
hvyj....I'm not big into chord playing either, but I have found a few double stops and splits that work..like 5/6 blow is somewhat of a chord in fifth position...I think? It would be the root and flat 3rd. How many notes to you need to call it a chord?
I have no idea what this equal tuning and stuff is about. I play Golden Melodys and have a set on order with Buddha. What tuning will I have?
@harpdude61: Partial chords (2 notes) are called double stops. I tend to use octave stops and other split interval double stops much more than chords or side by side double stops. Octave stops will always be in tune. I find that other split interval double stops sound fine in ET but there are those who vehemently disagree about that. But they seem to work fine for me.
Octave stops and split interval double stops generate ghost notes a/k/a difference tones--a third note that is not actually being played which makes the sound very BIG. Some claim the difference tones produced on an ET harp (other than from octave stops) will be out of tune, but that has not been my experience at least so far as split interval double stops are concerned.
Buddha will tune your GMs however you want him to. If you don't specify, I think he would probably do a compromise tuning, but I specified A442 pure ET on my Buddha GMs and I love 'em. This is something you should discuss with Chris. He may have a recommendation after he hears you play. As for me, I had a very firm preconceived idea about the tuning I wanted and I really like how mine sound at A442 pure ET for my style of play. I think OOB GMs are tuned to A443 pure ET, but I'm not certain about that. Chris would know.
