harpdude61
349 posts
Sep 20, 2010
9:43 AM
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I'm getting more chances to use my Ultimate 57 mic and Double Trouble amp out in public. I love the way it sounds and so does everyone that ever heard me play the PA with my stock GB..
Would love a few responses from you pros if you don't mind.
One thing is I practice my butt off at home trying to make sure the system does most of the work. You guys were right on awhile back when you said play with a soft breath. I have more control, better vibrato, and it does sound better. My problem is that if I try to play soft with a loud band, I have to turn things up to maintain my softness of breath. Well, seems like i get feedback issues then, so I turn it down and can't hear myself. When I can't hear myself I have a terrible habit of honking loudly which causes loss of quality.
I guess part of the problem is I run up when called in the middle of the bands gig. I'm not part of the original set-up. One band wants to use line out, another says my amp doesn't need it, one guy puts my amp in a chair, the next in the floor. Sometimes I'm close to my amp, sometimes not. Sometimes it is pointed at me,others not. What is optimal?
On my amp the wesite says Input #1 is your high gain or normal input and #2 is the low gain input. Both are 1/4" What does this mean for me sound and tone wise? Is my Bullet for one and my Ultimate for the other?
How does volume knob vs. volume knob work? Amp wide open and hand volume moderate or hand volume wide open and amp moderate?
I also have a Lone Wolf Harp Delay and my old Green Bullet.
Sometimes the overdrive is right on and others non-existent.
Does the line out affect my set-up or volume in any way?
As an inviterd guest I'm never in a full band practice situation to work all these bugs out.
Facts and opinions are both welcome.
Last Edited by on Sep 20, 2010 9:45 AM
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Joe_L
650 posts
Sep 20, 2010
9:59 AM
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I own a Double Trouble. I haven't had bad feedback problems with that amp. It's been my experience that it'll cut through the mix fairly well. It's usually drown out when playing with a really loud band or in a larger venue. I use a variety of mics with it.
If you are having a hard time hearing it, put it on a chair. If you need to amplify it, I've used the line out successfully. I've also mic'ed it successfully.
I'll suggest something radical. Heed their advice. Record the tunes and listen to the results. Afterward, do what sounds better.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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HarpNinja
638 posts
Sep 20, 2010
10:24 AM
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Having had that rig, I'll take a stab.
I would run the Ultimate in input 1 for sure. It is higher gain, but it is also louder. I would try to run the volume as high as I can while running the tone knob up too! Don't leave it off...it adds a lot of cut even on 3-4!
Use the volume on your mic to control your volume and feedback issues. Then you don't have to worry about the amp.
Regarding positioning, try not to have it aimed at your knees. Either have it several feet behind you, tilted at your ears, or on a chair.
Another "trick" might be to stand near the mains if your are using the lineout. Even if you're on stage, you can usually get some wash from the front of house speakers if you're on the side with one.
The line out shouldn't do anything to your sound/volume on stage.
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Amp for Harp Blog
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harpdude61
350 posts
Sep 20, 2010
11:40 AM
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Good idea Joe L. I'll get my wife to use a small recorder we have next time.
Wow...HarpNinja...I've been told all along to set my tone all the way down with this mic or it is too bright...so I have. So you are suggesting turn both knobs on the amp all the way up and control the volume at the mic? Can't wait to try it.
I do keep a a good seal with the mic if it matters and I'm expecting a delivery of custom Golden Melodys in the near future. I've heard they take less effort too.
I am surprised at how many musicians will set my volume on their PA and while doing so, ask me if that is as loud as I can blow.
One more question. I've not used the delay much. if I do with the settings at their lowest, will it be the same tone as without the delay and help possible feedback issues?
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hvyj
620 posts
Sep 20, 2010
12:16 PM
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If you are sitting in with different bands in different situations and have to set up quick, use the Ultimate--you'll have fewer feedback problems than if you try to use a bullet. Attenuate the VC on the mic to 9 o'clock or lower. This "cools out" the signal to minimize feedback. Set the amp VC for good tone and cut and then back off even more on the mic's VC if you have to. If the band is loud, line out if they'll let you--you'll have more cut.
This may be contrary to conventional wisdom, but think about just going straight into the board with your Ultimate 57. In situations like you are describing, I would just go direct with my 545 Ultimate and use the sophisticated EQ on the board to adjust my tone. Personally, I'll only use an amp with my own band or with a band I know will give me an adequate opportunity to get set up (which is not usually the situation). Otherwise, I think I get better and more consistent sound just going into the board and using good breath and mic handling technique. I find that I can pretty much get the sound i want no matter what I play though so long as i can use my own mic. But YMMV.
If there is a sound man, and I'm going direct into the board (or into the snake) I will tell him to pump the mids, roll off the highs and give me more than a little FX (reverb or delay). If there are monitors i will tell him i need monitor to hear myself and then I'm careful not to get so close to the monitor that I feedback. Trick: when you are not playing, hold the grill of the mic so it's pointing straight up in the air and that will help you avoid feedback problems. Btw, it is possible to turn up the gain on the board while backing off the board's volume a corresponding amount in order to get an overdriven or dirty sound, but I don't ordinarily do that since I'm not into distortion.
Hope this helps.
Last Edited by on Sep 20, 2010 12:30 PM
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harpdude61
352 posts
Sep 20, 2010
12:29 PM
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@hvyj
Very interesting ideas! I guess I do have a strong urge to always have my amp. Probably silly to take it in for 2 or 3 songs. I will for sure copy your soundman advice.
Can't wait to try some of this stuff!
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hvyj
621 posts
Sep 20, 2010
12:33 PM
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@harpdude61: Don't take this the wrong way, but it's sort of amusing to watch a harp player set up more gear than i have furniture in my living room just to play 2 or 3 songs.
Oh, and what i said about when i do and do not use an amp applies in spades if I'm also using pedals.
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HarpNinja
639 posts
Sep 20, 2010
12:50 PM
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To clarify on the settings...I'd have the volume around 7ish and then the tone up at least to 2-3...really as high as I could get it before feedback. That's where your "cut" will come from and the amp is voiced darker than guitar...so you won't be too trebly.
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Amp for Harp Blog
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hvyj
622 posts
Sep 20, 2010
1:14 PM
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"I am surprised at how many musicians will set my volume on their PA and while doing so, ask me if that is as loud as I can blow."
What they are doing is trying to determine what your max volume is in order to set levels. TIP: Never play at your max volume before feedback during a sound check (or level setting). ALWAYS leave yourself a little headroom to increase your volume if it becomes necessary to do so during the performance. Inevitably, when the band starts rocking hard, you may need to turn up a little and if they've maxxed you out at soundcheck, you're stuck unless there's a soundman mixing FOH during the set. Solution: Tell them you are at max, but leave yourself 5-10% to go up if you need it BUT DON'T actually turn up more unless you really need to.
"On my amp the webite says Input #1 is your high gain or normal input and #2 is the low gain input. Both are 1/4" What does this mean for me sound and tone wise? Is my Bullet for one and my Ultimate for the other?"
I've never owned a Double Trouble and HarpNinja has, so you may want to take this with a grain of salt, but I ALWAYS use the low gain input on any amp I play through. Why? It's lower gain, so you can crank the amp up farther before feedback. Also, because it's lower gain, the input signal is "smoother." But, like I said before, I'm not all that into distortion so, YMMV. But I do think the sound is more controllable in a live performance setting using the low gain input. FWIW.
"Does the line out affect my set-up or volume in any way?"
Well, is it a post-EQ out or a pre-EQ out? In other words, is the signal that's lined out affected by your tone controls or not? Either way, it's probably not affected by the amp's volume control (but some amps have a separate volume control on the line out jack). Is it XLR or 1/4"? If not XLR and you need to make more than a 20' run to the snake or the board you may need to use a direct box (Rolls makes a good inexpensive one called the Matchbox). Most of the time, if you are lined out just set up your amp so you get adequate stage sound and set the PA board channel it's going into for FOH sound. But sometimes, a band will expect the amp to be the primary sound reinforcement and just line it out for balance in the mix, so it's hard to generalize.
Last Edited by on Sep 20, 2010 2:04 PM
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captin beef harp
23 posts
Sep 20, 2010
1:25 PM
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i see alot of players here have harp gear amps does anyone have or heard the hg35 2x10s quite interested in this one
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HarpNinja
640 posts
Sep 20, 2010
1:53 PM
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Regarding High vs Low...the volume cut between the two on the DT drove me nuts...plus you are working with a 12ay7 which is already pretty low gain.
With any amp, the low gain will let you turn up louder because you have less gain hitting the tubes - which also means less push on the power tubes and a different frequency response. With a mic like the 57, it can handle the extra gain before feedback from the high input. Try both and see what works for you. Let your ears do the listening and don't just read the numbers on the amp.
Otherwise, hvj once again nails it.
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Amp for Harp Blog
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HarpNinja
641 posts
Sep 20, 2010
1:54 PM
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Oh yeah, you can get a similar change in tone by not running your volume control all the way too. I am super picky about this stuff because of the pedals I use and the need to sound clean and really dirty throughout the night...so I have spent a lot of time working on my use of hands, volume control, and breath support to be like a gain pedal for an amp....really I just try to think like a guitar player.
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Amp for Harp Blog
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hvyj
623 posts
Sep 20, 2010
2:13 PM
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I absolutely agree w/ HarpNinja. If you've got a good harp friendly mic, breath and mic handling technique are more important to the sound than all the rest of the equipment combined. That's why i feel i can get decent sound playing through almost anything so long as i can use my own mic.
I'm very much an electric player and I consider my mic to be part of my instrument. But, IMHO, if a player claims he can't get a decent sound unless he uses certain equipment, odds are that player probably can't really play all that competently.
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bubberbeefalo
20 posts
Sep 20, 2010
2:18 PM
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Captain Beef Harp- I have a HG 35 with 2 - 10s and I'm very happy with it. I haven't had any feedback problems.Run vol. between 4-6 in small clubs. In larger rooms and outside I use the line out and it really just puts out the tone of the amp. I use a LW delay and BBE stomp. Love the tone .Back in the old days I used a pre cbs Twin that peeled paint along with a good deal of my hearing.
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Greg Heumann
778 posts
Sep 20, 2010
2:32 PM
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I've heard Joe with his amp and agree with what he said. If you ARE in the house sound system be sure you're NOT in the monitors and that you place the amp where you can hear it. But acknowledge that there is an upper limit to how loud you can be with that amp. It isn't as loud as you could be with an HG50 or an Avenger- it just isn't. The Ultimate 57 is about as feedback friendly as you can get.
THANKS for using it!
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/Greg
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captin beef harp
24 posts
Sep 20, 2010
2:38 PM
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thanks bubberbeefalo (that would be a good band name)
the things ya gots to have
thanks again
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hvyj
624 posts
Sep 20, 2010
2:39 PM
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Greg is right (as usual). BUT, if you are going direct into the board, you need to be in the monitors for stage sound. In that situation you have to be conscious of the position of your mic in relation to the monitors so you don't feedback.
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Joe_L
651 posts
Sep 20, 2010
3:41 PM
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@harpdude61 - I always run into #1; I never use #2. The higher you crank the tnoe knob, the more the amp will cut. The sound will also be a bit brighter. If you've got skills that won't be much of a problem. If you leave the tone control completely off, it won't cut very much unless you crank the volume control as loud as it'll go.
With the Shure 545, I tend to run the tone all the way up and the volume @4 or higher. If you can't hear yourself on stage with that volume level, you're going to have hearing damage from your bandmates. I have no problem getting good tone out of the amp using those settings.
With a Shure CM bullet plugged into #1, I usually run the tone control at around 5 or 6; the volume control as loud as I need it to be. I've run it as high as 8, but the amp will sound like it's going to explode.
I like the Shure 520DX with this amp and run it the same as the 545. I've run a Shure SM57 in it with an impedence transformer using the 545 setting, too. I've run Astatic crystal elements with the amp. I tend to start with the volume and tone both on 5 and change the settings based on the mic.
I have never, ever, ever used the low gain input on the Double Trouble. It doesn't sound as good to my ear. To me, it's useless.
I've got youtube videos demonstrating the amp with different mics and settings. I can post them later, if there is interest.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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harpdude61
353 posts
Sep 20, 2010
4:05 PM
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Thanks so much to all of you. I have learned so much from this post. I appreciate that the explanations are understandable for low tech guys like me.
Off to a Monday night blues jam to try this stuff out!
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Joe_L
654 posts
Sep 20, 2010
6:42 PM
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Good luck. Let us know how it worked out. It's a great amp.
It's surprisingly loud, feedback resistant and portable. I think it's the perfect grab and go amp for jams. It's much more toneful than a Pro Jr and much louder.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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harpdude61
354 posts
Sep 21, 2010
5:08 AM
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Great blues jam last night. No other harp player showed up so I got to jam on about 10 songs. Big fun.
Everyone liked the Ultimate and the Double Trouble. Sound guy could not believe how much it cut thru. He had my amp miked but turned it off.
Never went above 3 on tone. I had to use D and F harps a lot and i was afraid it would be too bright.
Good experience and all the tips helped. THanks again!
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