MrVerylongusername
1205 posts
Aug 28, 2010
10:16 AM
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or bad html maybe? ;-)
If you're trying to post a YT video, you need to click the embed button on the Youtube page, copy it and then paste it into the message field.
use the Forum 'How To' guide for more help:
www.itriser.com/harmonica/mbh_how-to.htm
*EDIT* btw if you're used to BBcode used on other forums, it doesn't work here.
*I see you've deleted the blank post.
Last Edited by on Aug 28, 2010 11:18 AM
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LittleJoeSamson
435 posts
Aug 28, 2010
10:21 AM
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Jerry Portnoy ? You gotta be kidding. Of course, it's the sound. Big halls or outdoor venues are the toughest, tho. Conditions change, acoustics change.
Granted, the beginning was draggy and way too gainey. Around 1:53, things improved.
The caveat of the recording equipment and its quality also apply.
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Throttleskeezer
15 posts
Aug 28, 2010
10:43 AM
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Hello everybody.
I started playing with a "blues" band 6 month ago in Switzerland.
We played yesterday night 3 sets between "Rick Estrin and the Nightcats" sets. We decided to make the soundcheck with the first song (All your love). I played the entire song with a solo without hearing anything from my amp. It was my fault because of a bad cable.... After changing the cable from my delay, my sound was ok. Mr soundman tryed to set my sound but after 10 seconds he was nodding his head because of feedback problem.... So he decided to turn down the volume of the "clown with the harmonica" instead of turning down the volume of the leading guitar...
So the volume of my Harpgear 30 was on seven and I the audience and me could just listen to the sound only from my amp...
I was furious because I was forced to play with my most intensive natural tone all the time. Nobody could listen to all the subtilities I was trying to do...
And because of week sound of harmonica, the leader of our group started to overplay his guitare, which was harder to me to have a chance to do my job...I had no place to add a lick because he wanted to compensate and control this problem of "week" harmonica sound.
I felt a little frustrated because after months of rehearsal in a cool calm studio, I could't recognize the leader of our group yesterday. We started with cool blues groove and our third set finished into a speed rock sh*t.
It was the third time we played like this and this time he started to argue about my playing...
"you know you have to play you and no the others"..."; " A baker who has hemorrhoids knows that people want fresh bread anyway"...
Next time I'll turn down the volume of his guitar and be a part of the soundman...And keep blowing my harps!
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MrVerylongusername
1206 posts
Aug 28, 2010
11:51 AM
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I presume the feedback was coming through the PA? If it's coming from your amp, then you cannot blame the soundman.
First thing - a harmonica mic can be a problem if you are using floor wedge monitors. First thing to do is cut the harp from the wedges and use your amp as foldback. If you do not already, use an ampstand to raise it off the floor and tilt it towards your head. You will be amazed at how much sound you lose because it is pointing at your knees. Don't dangle a mic from the strap of the amp, unless it is one designed to pick up from the side. Not only will you get poor sound, you will also pick up a lot of stage noise and sound reflections (especially from a hard floor)
If the feedback is coming through the front of house speakers, it might be a matter of your on-stage positioning. Move back and to the sides. Check your amp isn't pointing at a vocal mic.
If you are getting lots of feedback through a PA, another thing you can do is reduce the 'tail' effect you get with effects like delay and reverb. Especially if the soundman is adding effects through the PA.
On stage volume is the cause of so many band arguments. You should adjust your levels to the volume of the drums. If the guitarist was too loud, then the soundman can only push the other levels higher, which increases the feedback potential of every open mic on the stage. A good soundman will build a lot of headroom into his gain structure. That is he will have plenty of extra volume to give the vocals before feedback. To do that he will EQ out troublesome frequencies well before the audience arrives. If your first song was the first chance he had to notch out feedback frequencies, then your harp will not have been built into that gain-structure.
It sounds to me like the lack of soundcheck and the guitarists volume were the culprits here.
I'm presuming the soundman at a Rick Estrin gig ought to be able to handle a harp amp.
Last Edited by on Aug 28, 2010 11:52 AM
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Throttleskeezer
16 posts
Aug 29, 2010
2:07 AM
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Thank for your advices.
Rick Estrin was on the main stage (which is much bigger than the small one we are using)and his show was fantastic.
Our soundman picked up the sound of my amp from a mic and I had a floor wedge monitor just infront of me. The amp was behind me at 1,50 m from the ground. I was at the limit before my amp start to feedback. As soon I could hear the sound of my amp through this backing monitor I could hear a kind of whououou (low frequencies). That's why he decided to push down my volume.
I guess I'll learn a lot in the next few months but I don't want to argue with anyone (soundman, friends from my band etc), it's usless.
Bye!
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MrVerylongusername
1208 posts
Aug 29, 2010
3:49 AM
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I'm still unclear as to whether it was your amp that was feeding back or the PA, but it sounds like the monitors were at least part of the problem.
The only situation where a soundman should cut you completely is one where he has no control and absolutely no alternative: if for instance the feedback is coming from your amp and your are doing nothing about it. Anything else (where the feedback is coming from his system) he should be trying to remedy, that's his job. If indeed the monitors were the problem then he could have reduced/cut your level in that mix (you still have a good sound going out front and your amp as monitor) or he could have tried to EQ out the troublesome frequencies.
If the guitarist is too loud on stage then tell him to turn down or angle his amp away from you, the soundman will ensure that his level front of house is correct and balanced. If he argues that he needs that volume to get the right tone, then tell him he needs a smaller amp. If he won't listen then find another guitarist or find another band because you will never be able to compete with a loud guitar amp and you will never be heard.
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Greg Heumann
744 posts
Aug 29, 2010
9:09 AM
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The best situation is to have NONE of your signal in the monitors. Do everything you can to be able to hear yourself, including moving the amp closer or tilting it back, getting it up higher, etc. But if you have to use monitors, you have to back your amp off from the hairy edge of feedback as well. The PA is adding to the total gain of the "system" - i.e., harp mic-->amp(gain)-->floor mic-->PA(more gain).
In my experience with the HG30, it is a bit feedbacky to begin with. You might ask Brian if there is an acceptable way to lower its gain a bit.
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/Greg
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barbequebob
1203 posts
Aug 29, 2010
12:34 PM
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When it comes to the harp amp in the monitors, unless you have a phenomenally great sound guy who knows the instrument real well and also keeps the stage monitor volume down (when sound guys are rockers, they almost always have them WAAAAAAAAAAY too freaking loud plus their general idea of harp is Bob Dylan), putting a harp amp is pretty much asking for feedback hell, and this is from 30+ years of pro experience.
I can count on one hand the number of times I had a sound guy who had a clue when it came to harmonica and harp amps (guitar amps used for harps, etc.) and the ones that did a great job also kept the monitor stage volume DOWN. One sound guy I had was also a great harp player himself, Pierre Beauregard and he got the sound system of a really horribly bad sounding PA plus with a room with lousy acoustics to go along with it sound more like Chess Records.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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Littoral
66 posts
Aug 29, 2010
2:53 PM
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Bob.
Pierre, had my first lesson with him, 1979. CHO after that. I was hunting Powerhouse on youtube yesterday- not to be. (Rollercoaster!)
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barbequebob
1204 posts
Aug 29, 2010
3:28 PM
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@Littoral --- Then we`ve probably crossed paths a few times with the CHO.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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Throttleskeezer
17 posts
Aug 30, 2010
1:12 PM
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Thanks,
@barbequebob, the soundman looked like embarassed when he saw me with my amp. He said:" Haaaa, you use an amp with your harmonica.....well....so you need I mic..." and I could see a disapointment on his face.
@ myverylong... and Greg Heumann, I have an other gig on friday and I 'll try to eliminate every cause of feedback. I'll ask also Brian Purdy if there is a clue to make sing my HG30 more trebly. I like the muddy sound of my HG30 (I play with a bullet with a shure white label CM element inside) but it's too "muddy" when the screaming guitar of my friend is coming. My leader is an excellent guitar player but he comes from rock'n roll world. His mentor is Stevie Ray Vaughan...
I don't want to play harp without hearing what I'm doing. My leader who is a very good guitar player told me that he was able to play without hearing what he was doing sometimes (he did some gigs like that). I want to play music and I don't want to produce awful noise for dumb people...
I know a good guitar player who has put in front of his amp a PMMA plastic plate. This plate is inclinated so the projection of sound go up... I'll try to hear how it sounds like...
I will also plug my Ultimate 57 for a try (the mic I use with a lot of effects only for fun, never in a gig), use a BBE maximiser and see the result.
I thank you again for your advice.
Sam.
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barbequebob
1206 posts
Aug 30, 2010
1:19 PM
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Put the amp on a stand, chair, or milk crates.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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walterharp
442 posts
Aug 30, 2010
1:40 PM
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also, try to get a recording out front. just cause the sound is not good on the stage, does not mean the crowd gets bad sound, and that is what matters as long as you can hear just enough to play. earplugs really help because of the way harp sound travels through your head. i can hear myself playing with no amplification on stage with a loud band with my earplugs in. that is why singers sometimes plug their ear while they sing.
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MrVerylongusername
1210 posts
Aug 30, 2010
2:40 PM
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I think you should seriously try playing without delay. In a busy mix, delay just muddies things and pushes you further into the background. It also really increases the feedback potential. As Greg says, it is gain that is the cause of feedback and some guitar pedals boost the output signal.
The feedback you mentioned was low frequency; were you standing near the bass amp? in the line of fire of the kickdrum? was it a hollow wooden stage? (the whole stage can sometimes act as a resonating board for low frequencies.) Think carefully about the position of your amp and yourself (your mic) if you're playing on a hollow stage, especially if the floor is a hard reflective surface (i.e. not carpeted) then try angling the cab-mic up slightly. Unwanted bass frequencies can find their way into a mix through mics on backline cabs.
A major cause of feedback is the room itself, where sound reflection cause certain frequencies to be amplified. Next time, in a different room it might be better.
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bluemoose
278 posts
Aug 30, 2010
4:56 PM
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You know those 'V' deflector baffle things sound guys put in front of guitar amps and mic (I guess to reduce the 'beam' effect)?
What do you tell the sound guy when he tries to put one on your harp amp? Sure he may get better sound in the house but it reduces my stage sound and I'm not in the monitors so I can't hear myself very well.
Should I hand him a lineout cable, tilt the amp back a bit and insist on no baffle?
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MrVerylongusername
1212 posts
Aug 30, 2010
5:43 PM
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The soundguy has a job to do; to make the band sound hot.
You have a job to do; to sound hot.
You and he are both working towards the same goal. Too often things get difficult because a them vs. us situation arises.
Talk to the soundguy. Explain what you want sound and monitor-wise and listen to why he wants to put the diffuser on.
A diffuser evens out the tone, if he wants to put it on it's because you must sound pretty harsh and trebley from certain angles, and dull from others - as you say beam effect. Trust his ears. Stage sound is very different to front of house sound. It is a compromise: sound good to the crowd, but find it harder to hear yourself or sound harsh and nasty, but have all the monitor you need. At the end of the day it's your call.
Work together, can you fire the amp across the stage rather than into the audience?
Here's a tip: head resonance is the cheapest monitor you will ever get. put an earplug in one ear and you'll hear your harp fine. Try it with those cheap foam plugs. If it works for you, then invest in proper moulds.
If you have some money burning a hole in your pocket, In Ear Monitors are the business.
Last Edited by on Aug 31, 2010 1:32 AM
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Throttleskeezer
18 posts
Aug 31, 2010
11:59 AM
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Thank you,
Friday I'll play with my amp on a stand. I'll play with my Ultimate 57 + a impedance converter. I'll try earplugs as well...
I don't know how is the stage so I'll tell you on saturday how the gig was.
Sam.
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N.O.D.
150 posts
Aug 31, 2010
11:12 PM
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Brothers I'm liveing in another land Soundman,
Soundman whats he look like:)
all i ever get to play via at the moment is the house mic and PA system, but my Bro and i are sorting that out at a local Jam:)
no fancy sound man fiddling with things it's all ways a set and forget system at Jams, show us what you got give us the Raw deal,
my Bro and i have been getting good reviews but we are mainly flying by the seat of our pants, Because we can't hear our selves on stage,
MR Vlun you say
Here's a tip: head resonance is the cheapest monitor you will ever get
put an earplug in one ear and you'll hear your harp fine. Try it with those cheap foam plugs.
Well i say Thank You!!, Thank You!!, Thank You Bro,
I'm going to get my Bro to get some Fancy Rubber earplugs from work and we will give it a go:)
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Top work Bro:)
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LittleJoeSamson
443 posts
Aug 31, 2010
11:47 PM
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Hey Dog...If you have a mic stand, get a piece of clear lucite about 12X12 or even bigger. Mount it to the mic stand. Voila : instant monitor. No electronics.
Use the acoustics.
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Throttleskeezer
20 posts
Sep 04, 2010
8:29 AM
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Hello,
yesterday night we played from midnight to 2:00AM. I had no problem with feedback or anything else.
The gig was ok although our band is still young and we need to work more.
Some of our songs are ok but a few others are wobbly.
We need to work on our showmanship because we look too serious....
So I'll work seriously on my harp to feel more confident on stage and give what the people want and the most important of all: I'll have fun!
Thanks for all your advices about how to get a better sound on stage.
Sam
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joeleebush
77 posts
Sep 04, 2010
8:56 AM
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@ Throttleskeezer
Whether you like it or not or "want to" or not, you're going to have to be a hardass with some people, if you're going to be a topnotch leader and have control over your show. Yep, it will be a us against them thing..one way or the other. "Compromise" is a sign of weakness to them.
The show is YOURS..not the sound man's show. The show is YOURS..not the guitar player's show or the drummer's show. It may take firing some people to get the message across...I've fired plenty. Once the word gets around town that you will run them off and not pay them...you'll be amazed at how quickly their replacements snap into line.
Soundman says...."I've been doing this for years, man,I know whats best". My reply is.."NO you do NOT know what is best or you would not be arguing with me..now get this straight,its going to be my way or there will be no show and the promoter or buyer is going to see that its your fault, soundman. So get with it..NOW" If he holds to his position, just start packing to leave, and then DO IT!...to hell with the money, its not worth the grief.
Oh yes, every now and then one will take a swing at you...you just better know how to take care of yourself and drop him like a bad habit. (A sidekick to the nuts works wonders with those type.)
Soundman has to be disciplined into understanding that the loudest instrument in the show is your harmonica...(it is the saxophone of the band).
It will take work in weeding out the losers but in the long run you will have a great program...watch Rick Estrin, James Harman, or Rod Piazza at show setup..they take no crud from soundman.
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