jaymcc28
298 posts
Aug 05, 2010
12:16 PM
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This weekend I had a rare chance to jam with a guitar player. A good friend of ours (my wife's musical partner, actually) is an incredible player. Although the two of them play mostly folk-style music he also loves the blues.
At one point he broke into a slower blues in Dm. At first I tried to play 2nd position on my G but it just wasn't sounding good. Then I remembered all the talk about 3rd so I broke out my C.
I couldn't remember much about 3rd other than to start on the 4 draw. I also remembered learning some of melody for "House of the Rising Sun" and being told that was in 3rd position.
Anyway, I noodled around and wouldn't you know it sounded pretty damn good! I pretty much moved between the 4 draw and 8 draw and got some good sounds and riffs.
So now I want to learn more about 3rd. I think I want to attack it in the form of scale degrees. Can anyone point me in the direction of what holes correspond to what scale degrees in 3rd position across the I, IV and V chords?
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"Take out your false teeth, momma, I want to suck on your gums."-P. Wolf
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jaymcc28
299 posts
Aug 05, 2010
12:18 PM
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OK, so I just saw Jim's response to CMo regarding developing riffs over the IV and V in 2nd position.
Is it safe to say, then, that the I chord in 3rd position maps to the V chord in 2nd position?
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"Take out your false teeth, momma, I want to suck on your gums."-P. Wolf
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Ryan
331 posts
Aug 05, 2010
12:38 PM
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"Is it safe to say, then, that the I chord in 3rd position maps to the V chord in 2nd position?"
Yes
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jaymcc28
300 posts
Aug 05, 2010
12:56 PM
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@Ryan, thanx for the confirmation.
What about the IV and V chords?
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"Take out your false teeth, momma, I want to suck on your gums."-P. Wolf
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CamiloHarper
10 posts
Aug 05, 2010
1:04 PM
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I chord 3rd positon blues scale in the middle octave
-3-5 6 -6b -6 7 -9
IV chords. Same es I chord in second position!! use your second position licks. Remember to always play the blue third (lowered one half step) and not the natural note (B in a c harp) It would clash against the minor chords and would sound disonat (bad).
EDITED: WRONG INFO.
Hope that helped!!
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With some latin flavour for you, chico!! :P
Last Edited by on Aug 05, 2010 5:32 PM
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jaymcc28
301 posts
Aug 05, 2010
1:33 PM
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Thanks Camilo...good stuff
I got off my lazy back sid, broke out a harmonica chart and came up with the following. Does anyone want to check my work?
The first column is the lower octave, the second column the upper octave.
3RD POSITION
I chord
root= 1 draw root= 4 draw
3rd = 2'draw 3rd = 5 draw
5th = 3"draw 5th = 6 draw
7th = 4 blow/1 blow 7th = 7 blow
Oct = 4 draw Oct = 8 draw
IV chord
Root= 2 draw root= 6 blow
3rd = 3'draw 3rd = 7 draw
5th = 4 draw 5th = 8 draw
7th = 5 draw 7th = 9 draw
Oct = 6 blow Oct = 9 blow
V chord
root= 3"draw root= 6 draw
3rd = 4 blow 3rd = 7 blow
5th = 5 blow 5th = 8 blow
7th = 6 blow 7th = 9 blow
Oct = 6 draw Oct = 10draw
EDIT: I can't get the columns to format properly. I replaced the tabs with spaces but to no avail. sorry if it is hard to read.
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"Take out your false teeth, momma, I want to suck on your gums."-P. Wolf
Last Edited by on Aug 05, 2010 1:35 PM
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bluemoose
258 posts
Aug 05, 2010
1:47 PM
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@CamiloHarper - wouldn't the V chord in 3rd position
(key of E - I, A - IV, B - V) be like the I chord in 4th
position? (key E, D harp, B chord)
Or am I thinking too much (or too little! :) about this?
moose.
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hvyj
506 posts
Aug 05, 2010
2:17 PM
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This may be too over simplified, but you can actually get quite a bit of mileage just from the third position blues scale which can be played in all 3 registers as follows:
1D 2D** 2D/3B 3D*** 3D** 4B 4D 5D 6B 6D* 6D 7B 8D 9D 9B 10D 10B
Can't get a flat fifth in the upper register, but otherwise you have the complete blues scale through 3 octaves. And in the lower register B1 is flat seventh.
Btw, if you are using third position to play in a NATURAL minor key, you MUST avoid D7 and D3 which would be the major sixth of the scale. Major sixth works fine for dorian minors, but will sound REALLY BAD if you hit it when playing natural minor.
Last Edited by on Aug 05, 2010 3:37 PM
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The7thDave
149 posts
Aug 05, 2010
2:17 PM
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I've put together some charts that might be useful here. They show the playable intervals on harp layouts for various chords for positions 1-6, 11, and 12. Chords I, IV and V are shown for each of these positions, chords ii and iii are also shown for positions 1-3 (I'll add them for the other positions when I get around to it). The charts also show how the chords in the different positions relate to each other (but not exhaustively).
Here are the charts in PDF on Google Docs
Hope this works.
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--Dave
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* BTMFH *
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Last Edited by on Aug 05, 2010 2:34 PM
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CamiloHarper
11 posts
Aug 05, 2010
2:33 PM
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@CamiloHarper - wouldn't the V chord in 3rd position
(key of E - I, A - IV, B - V) be like the I chord in 4th
position? (key E, D harp, B chord)
Or am I thinking too much (or too little! :) about this?
@moose.
Yep my bad It would be 4th position, not 5th. Got a little messed up!!!
Y
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With some latin flavour for you, chico!! :P
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Ryan
332 posts
Aug 05, 2010
5:05 PM
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" wouldn't the V chord in 3rd position
(key of E - I, A - IV, B - V) be like the I chord in 4th position? (key E, D harp, B chord)"
Yep, that's correct.
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Jim Rumbaugh
278 posts
Aug 05, 2010
6:53 PM
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@Jaymcc28 "somebody check my work"
1CHORD in 3rd position. The 3rd of the scale.
-2' is the 3rd of the major chord
-2" is the 3rd of the minor chord
-5 is the 3rd of the minor chord
There is no EASY 3rd for the major chord in the middle when in 3rd position.
We gotta be carefull. The thread started talking about MINOR scales in 3rd, which is my favorite subject. Are we talking Minor I, IV, V ? or minor I and IV with a major V, which is a common combination?
Or all major?? (then why do 3rd position?)
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intermediate level (+) player per the Adam Gussow Scale, Started playing 2001
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hvyj
509 posts
Aug 06, 2010
5:12 AM
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You can't play the notes of the minor IV chord in third position except in the lower octave. In the lower octave you can bend D3 a half step to get the minor 3d of the IV chord (which is the minor 6th of the key you are in).
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jaymcc28
302 posts
Aug 06, 2010
10:44 AM
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@Jim: I'm just talking about playing along with a 12 bar blues in a minor key. Whether the V is major or not...no clue, bro.
Ultimately I'm trying to find a way to comfortably jam along when it comes up.
@hvyj: I don't understand why one can't play the notes of the minor IV chod in third position in the second octave. Is it because the TRUE minor notes don't exist after the 4 hole? Isn't the 3 draw half-step bend the same note as the 7 draw?
And, yes, I found out the hard way about the 3 draw unbent. The 7 draw bent sounded OK so maybe the guitar player was playing dorian minor?
Man, I'm using words I've never used before...
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"Take out your false teeth, momma, I want to suck on your gums."-P. Wolf
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hvyj
511 posts
Aug 06, 2010
12:03 PM
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@jaymcc28: You can't bend the 7 draw on a standard richter tuned harmonica. You may be able to get a slight bend, but not a half step. Draw 3 is the same note as draw 7, only an octave lower. In third position this note is the major 6th of the key you are in.
There are different kinds of minor scales. Dorian minor has a flat 3d, flat 7th and major 6th. Natural minor has flat 3d, flat 7th and flat 6th. Harmonic minor has a flat 3d, flat 6th and major 7th.
To play a chord as a MINOR chord (or to play the chord tones of a minor chord) the 3d of the chord MUST be played flat, which is called a minor 3d. If you don't play that note flat when you are in a minor key it will sound REALLY BAD. (Btw, you CAN play a minor third over a major chord and it will sound okay. BUT if you try to play a major third over a minor chord it sounds awful).
Anyway, the flat 3d of the IV chord is the flat 6th of the scale of key you are in. The only way to get a flat 6th in third position is to play 3D* or 10B**. So, to answer your question, yeah, the flat 6th is just not available anywhere else on the harp in third position. It's just not there unless you OB. I don't OB
If 3 draw unbent and 7 draw unbent sounded awful, the guitar player was probably playing natural minor. In third position, these notes are the major 6th of the scale which sounds really bad if you use it on a natural minor tune. Why? Because in natural minor the IV chord is played minor and so the 3d of that chord must be played flat and that note is the flat 6th of the scale of the key you are in. So, if you play major 6th it sounds awful.
To play blues in a natural minor key, I use fifth position which gives you the flat 3d, flat 6th and flat 7th without having to bend. Very handy.
I do quite a bit of playing in minor keys. In order to select the right position to use, you need to know if the key is natural minor, dorian minor or harmonic minor. Use third position for dorian, use fifth or fourth position for natural and use fourth position for harmonic. Generally speaking, it's easier to get blues phrasing in fifth than in fourth so I tend to play natural minor blues in fifth position.
Playing in fifth is actually easier than playing in third because there are fewer bends.
Hope this helps.
Last Edited by on Aug 06, 2010 12:13 PM
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LeeEdwards
79 posts
Aug 06, 2010
12:04 PM
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"You can't play the notes of the minor IV chord in third position except in the lower octave."
Sure you can. 6 blow, 6 overblow, 7 blow. 9 blow, 10 blow whole step bend, 10 blow.
@jaymcc28 - The 7 draw gives the same note as the 3 draw but one octave higher. The 6 overblow gives you the same note as the 3 draw half step bend but one octave higher.
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"You will never get every possible thing out of an instrument, but the instrument will get every possible thing out of you" - Ray Charles.
Last Edited by on Aug 06, 2010 12:12 PM
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Diggsblues
435 posts
Aug 06, 2010
12:12 PM
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Just trying to play a lick on a chord change makes
the musical line stuck at each change. Once you
feel comfortable with knowing what note you want to
play try connecting the changes with lines that
go over the changes.
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How you doin'
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