CMo
46 posts
Aug 05, 2010
5:42 AM
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I am making some starting to improvise some really nice stuff off of the I chord. It gets easier and easier every time I practice. I feel the a rut coming on and I want to continue to advance so I was wondering if anyone had tips for(or wouldn't mind sharing)developing riffs off the IV & V chords.
Please feel free to answer this question in a differnt way if I am off on the wrong track with my thinking.
Thanks in advance
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Learning is a journey, not a destination... -BL
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CMo
47 posts
Aug 05, 2010
5:46 AM
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Some things I have been playing with are:
1-4 Octave blow on the V, then the 1-4 Octave draw on the IV
3d-4b over the V chord, then 4-5 draw trill over the IV
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Learning is a journey, not a destination... -BL
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Ryan
330 posts
Aug 05, 2010
9:06 AM
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CMo, you have it backwards, your 1-4 blow octave should be on the IV chord, and the 1-4 draw octave should be on the V chord.
For the IV chord I would recommend practicing 1st position blues. And on the V chord the 3rd position blues scale will work well.
Other than that I would recommend listening to some of your favorite blues harp players and pay attention to the type of stuff they play over the IV and V chords.
Of course the 2nd position blues scale will work over I, IV, and V chords, but once you start learning to really "voice" the different chords, so that the audience can actually hear the chord changes in your playing, it will bring your playing up to the next level. It's especially important to be able to do this if you're playing solo. When you're playing solo you don't have a band backing you up and playing those changes, so you need to be responsible for the changes and make sure the audience can hear them, otherwise you're playing runs the risk of sounding like aimless noodling. Check out Adam's one man band stuff, he's really good at playing the changes, and of course he has to be because he doesn't have any chordal instruments playing the changes behind him.
EDIT: I hope nobody misunderstands me about the playing solo thing. It is possible to play single chord vamps / drone blues, and not play any chord changes. That kind of thing can sound great if it has a strong groove
Last Edited by on Aug 05, 2010 9:18 AM
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CMo
48 posts
Aug 05, 2010
9:24 AM
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Damn! I had to go back and check that myself...I been playing that backward all this time. And wondered why it sounded off to my ear. That helps alot to straighten things out.
Thanks for the tips...and the correction!
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Everyday is an opportunity to learn something new...
Last Edited by on Aug 05, 2010 9:28 AM
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Jim Rumbaugh
275 posts
Aug 05, 2010
10:12 AM
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First step to developing (blues) riffs on the IV and V chord is to find the root, 3rd, 5th and 7th of the chord
IV chord
root= 1 blow ( or 4 blow = octave )
3rd = 2 blow (but it's not a "blue 3rd")
5th = 3 blow
7th = 3 draw bent 1/2 step a.k.a. -3'
V chord
root= 1 draw (or 4 draw = octave)
3rd = 2 draw bent 1/2 to 1 step (blue 3rd=about 3/4 step)
5th = 3 draw bent 1 step down a.k.a. -3"
7th = 4 blow ( could use 1 blow)
Now,try mix and match those notes to a groove and you have a "passable" riff.
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intermediate level (+) player per the Adam Gussow Scale, Started playing 2001
Last Edited by on Aug 05, 2010 10:14 AM
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CMo
49 posts
Aug 05, 2010
11:57 AM
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Oh Jim, that definitely goes in my "lessons" book. I tried some of that at lunch and got some pretty nice combinations.
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Everyday is an opportunity to learn something new...
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Diggsblues
432 posts
Aug 05, 2010
12:57 PM
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Adam has stuff you can purchase and so does Dave Barrett if your serious about learning.
I think Buddha gives lessons over the internet.
Ya gotta buy the cow if you want milk all the time LOL
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How you doin'
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LeeEdwards
75 posts
Aug 05, 2010
5:50 PM
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Nice work Jim. I would like to expand on this and suggest some amendments if I may so that there is no misunderstanding for people reading the thread who have yet to get a grasp of this.
When referring to the scale degrees that make up chords:- the term '3rd' should refer to the major third. The term 'b 3rd' refers to the minor third. Likewise '7th' implies major 7th wheras 'b 7th ' implies minor seventh.
Therefore where Jim has written above, for example, that the 7th of the V chord is found on the 4 blow it should actually read that the b7th is found on the 4 blow. The 7th is found on the -4'. Also the 3rd is found on the -2' and the b3rd is found on the -2''.
Where things are reversed is when referring to actual chord names. If you see this, G7, for example it means that you take a G major triad (R, 3rd and 5th) and add the b7th to make what is called a dominant 7th chord. The letter followed by the 7 alone always means to play the major triad with a b7th. Gm7 would mean that a minor triad (R, b3rd, 5th) should be played with the added b7th. However if the chord name is written like this: Gmaj7 it means to play the major triad with an added major 7th.
So the basic V chord notes on the low end in cross harp:-
Dominant 7th Chord.
Root = -1
3rd = -2'
5th = -3''
b7th = 4
Minor 7th Chord
Root = -1
b3rd = -2''
5th = -3''
b7th = 4
Major 7th Chord
Root = -1
3rd = -2'
5th = -3''
7th = -4'
I would like to make reference to the 'blue 3rd' also. Whenever anybody makes reference to the 'blue 3rd' they always describe it as a quarter step bend right in the middle between the 3rd and the b3rd. Now the distance between the 3rd and b3rd is 100 cents. This would put the 'blue 3rd' at 50 cents sharper than the b3rd. I always thought that the 'blue 3rd' was only 10-20 cents sharper than the b3rd so shouldn't it be described as a 3/8, 2/5, or 7/16 bend?
There's something to ponder :)
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"You will never get every possible thing out of an instrument, but the instrument will get every possible thing out of you" - Ray Charles.
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Jim Rumbaugh
277 posts
Aug 05, 2010
6:40 PM
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@Lee
we can start another thread on the "blue third". The only reason I mentioned it, was that there is no EASY bluesy sounding 3rd for the IV chord. Therefore, I try to avoid it when playing IV chord riffs.
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intermediate level (+) player per the Adam Gussow Scale, Started playing 2001
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eharp
741 posts
Aug 05, 2010
6:47 PM
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thanks, ryan.
i am sure others have suggested on this and other forums to play 1st and 3rd position over the IV and V chords, but i heard it this time!!
and it makes sense, too!!
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LeeEdwards
77 posts
Aug 05, 2010
7:23 PM
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@Jim - My thoughts about the 'blue 3rd' were not directed at you personally. It just seems that it has become the norm by most if not all to call the 'blue 3rd' a 1/4 step bend when that's not actually true. I'm not bothered by it in the slightest though. The amount of variation in pitch will change from player to player and from tune to tune depending on the mood or colour needing to be expressed anyway.
It was just a thought. My mind does these things to me from time to time.
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"You will never get every possible thing out of an instrument, but the instrument will get every possible thing out of you" - Ray Charles.
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ianharpo
1 post
Aug 06, 2010
4:37 AM
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@ Lee - So this is where you come to cause trouble after a getting frustrated by your students ? ;-)
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CMo
50 posts
Aug 06, 2010
6:54 AM
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Great discussion!! I really appreciate it.
@Lee your expansion will require some study on my part as it seems to include a fair amount of music theory. Is that right? In any case it is getting added to my notebook for some use during "woodshed time".
I feel like my Blue 3rd is also not "50 cents". If I bend it down that far it does not seem to fit right to my ear. I definitely feel like it is 20-30 cents.
Question. Considering the addition of Lees post, are we leaning more toward composing music as opposed to improvising?
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Everyday is an opportunity to learn something new...
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hvyj
510 posts
Aug 06, 2010
7:39 AM
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You know, the world won't come to an end if a player uses the major 3d every now and then when playing blues. It's a perfectly acceptable part of the idiom. And a certain amount of imprecision in when, whether and how far the 3d is flatted is very much part of the aesthetic of the blues.
A significant part of the emotion of blues music is generated by when, whether and how far one flats the 3d and if when and how one releases the bend on a flatted or blue third up into the major third of the chord. Tension is created by lowering the third of the chord on the melody or playing a lowered third against a major chord. And that tension can be released if the lowered third is resolved upwards into the major third of the chord against which the melody line is being played. So, movement of the bend is a big part of the emotion of blues music--the artistry is in if, when, and how this is done.
Even if one COULD get the the minor 3d of the IV chord in second position, (which would be the minor 6th of the key you are in) playing that note on major key blues material produces a very dark and minor sounding tonality which is not a part of traditional blues style.
Now, the flat 3d of the V chord is a different story because it happens to be the same note as the flat 7th of the I chord. So, while that note should ordinarily be played as a true minor 7th or a little flatter on the I when playing blues, you can play around with it on the V by playing it major, minor or anywhere in between as a blue third of the V chord. So, in second position, you can fool around w/bending draw 2 on the V chord and can use the bend to create tension and release the bend upward to resolve into the major 3d of the V chord as a release.
Another thing you can do on the V chord when playing blues in second position is to bend draw 6. That is the flat 9th of the key you are in which is ordinarily not a good note to play. BUT, it happens to be the flat 5th of the V chord and so will work if played on the V. It is a restless note and not a note of resolution, but can be very effective to create intensity or crescendo on the V every now and then. But don't over do it.
On the IV chord, the flat 7th of the IV chord is the same note as the flat 3d of the I chord, so you can work off that. But, when playing blues, that note should ordinarily be played at least a half step flat or a little flatter when used on the IV chord. It's a good note to hang on as the music transitions from the I chord to the IV chord because it is a blue note in each of those chords.
Last Edited by on Aug 06, 2010 8:04 AM
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