apskarp
272 posts
Jul 25, 2010
4:38 AM
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It has been interesting to do a little experiment with my G-harp (Hohner Pro Harp). It was almost unused for more than a year as it wasn't really playable. At first I thought it was because of the low key as it could be hard for a beginner to play those - and I didn't have much use for that key anyway.
About month ago I started gapping it to see how much it improves the playability - and it did, a lot. Actually it became quite playable with just the gapping.
Few days ago I started to practice Bach's Flute Sonata in E-minor with the harp. As it was still not very good harp to play I started to do other customizing things with it like the embossing etc. The change was really noticeable. I played it for a few hours with every step of the customizing process to see how much the playability improves with each step - and those really made a difference.
The biggest learning was, surprisingly, the effect of the tuning. I decided to make this one with equal tempered tuning. I didn't tune it between all those steps - as some of them changed the tuning of course. So the last step that I did was the tuning and what happened was that I noticed how RELAXED my whole embouchure was! The difference was really remarkable. I mean I knew that the harp was out of tune before so I didn't try to get the intonation right, but apparently I still tried to do that unconsciously and it really stressed my embouchure (the facial muscles + the inner muscles) as I had to bend every single note I played.
This is something that I never have though of before, but now I really felt the difference. So, the learning is that it is really important to tune the harps also because of the difference it makes in your embouchure - even though you don't play those harps in public. I have some harps that I like to play now and then but which I haven't worked with yet - now I'm really going to work with those harps as it really can affect your learning too...
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jim
242 posts
Jul 25, 2010
4:43 AM
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you've got mail...
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apskarp
274 posts
Jul 25, 2010
5:41 AM
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@Jim: Can't see any mail in my inbox..?
Btw, I wonder how much this tuning thing affects when one plays melody lines with Just intonation or Comprimised tunings..? Does anybody have experience on that?
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jim
244 posts
Jul 25, 2010
5:50 AM
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ok, let's try gmail...
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hvyj
487 posts
Jul 25, 2010
7:21 AM
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Interesting topic. About 2 1/2 years ago I began to play Suzuki Hammonds which are ET after playing compromised tuned Hohners for many years. My playing improved and my ear improved. I sounded so much more IN TUNE with the band and i was hearing pitches and intervals much better
I play in multiple positions, but I play no other instruments. I never realized how all the flat notes on a compromise tuned harp adversely affected my sound until i started playing ET. For the first time, when i played a 7b in second position I was hearing what it is SUPPOSED to sound like at concert pitch instead of at a lower, detuned pitch. My playing and my ear improved dramatically over about a 30 day period once a started playing ET, and i was by no means a beginner when this happened. Now, I can't stand to play anything other than ET because of all the deliberately flat notes.
So, yeah, based on my experience I think tuning dramatically affects how one plays. I don't play a lot of chords--for a player who "chugs" ET may not sound so good. So, tuning would have an affect on how a player like that would play as well. One way or the other, I think tuning makes a big difference. FWIW.
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jim
246 posts
Jul 25, 2010
7:30 AM
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if you tune them to 441 and on, those flat notes will be in tune. While playing, you'll be correcting the sharp notes automatically.
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hvyj
488 posts
Jul 25, 2010
9:31 AM
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@jim: What do you mean by tuning "them to 441 an on?" Do you mean using 441 as a baseline and tuning some notes SHARPER than that? Isn't that what some people refer to as "harmony tuning?"
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apskarp
276 posts
Jul 25, 2010
10:27 AM
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I think what Jim means is that if normal tuning is A=440HZ, tuning the harp to A=441Hz makes all the notes a bit sharper which means that e.g. 5 draw doesn't sound flat. But that also means that you have to adjust your embouchure so that the all the other notes won't sound sharp (which you will make automatically).
But actually that is the very phenomenon I realized I do: If the notes aren't equal tempered I will unconsciously adjust my embouchure so that the intonation will be (more) correct. And that actually is stressful as you have to bend almost all the notes while playing melody lines - while in Equal Tempered harp you can have more relaxed embouchure and your ears will be trained to hear the right intonation all the time you hit the notes.
Of course in my example the difference was much bigger as the harp was seriously out of tune (15 cents flat on average), but still you can feel the difference in the embouchure when playing ET vs. Just/Compromised tuning.
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jim
248 posts
Jul 25, 2010
11:23 AM
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that's exactly what I meant.
Further advantages of tuning to A=441 (or more):
*the louder you play - the flatter the reed sounds (with the guitar it's VICE VERSA!!) Keeping the intonation generally a bit sharp will still keep you in tune no matter how hard/loug you play
*over time, brass reeds get flatter. That happens naturally except some cases when an odd reed would get sharper. But usually they go flatter. Tuning them all sharper give you more time before the next fine-tuning. Steel reeds don't change their pitch over time...
*A slightly sharper tuned instrument will be heard as "bright" and will generally stand out in a band as a soloing instrument.
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hvyj
489 posts
Jul 25, 2010
12:15 PM
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Well, out of the box Suzuki Hammonds are tuned to A442 anyway, and i have my Buddha harps tuned to A442 pure ET. I think GMs come tuned A443 out of the box.
The pitch of ANY harp flattens a little under breath pressure when played, especially the draw notes. So, most harps are tuned 441-443 (not 440) out of the box anyway so they will sound in tune or slightly bright under performance conditions.
This does NOT eliminate the problem of compromise tuned or JI tuned harps having certain notes that sound flat--and this dissonance becomes even more of a problem when playing in positions above third.
Pitch is, of course, relative, and if certain notes are tuned relatively flat in relation to the other notes on the harp, they will sound relatively flat whether the baseline tuning is 440, 441, 442 or 443.
I'm no expert on tunings, but I don't think ANY Hohner, Suzuki or LO harps come from the factory tuned to A440. They are all tuned to 441, 442 or 443 depending on the brand and model. So, although what jim is saying is unquestionably correct, in my experience that doesn't solve the problem I was describing in my first post.
My ear may not be not as good as apskarp's, so i don't get stressed out by trying to lower the pitch of the properly tuned notes, but I am bothered by how the flat tuned notes sound, and how they adversely affect my ability to play in tune. I don't experience that problem when i play ET harps.
Last Edited by on Jul 25, 2010 12:27 PM
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jim
249 posts
Jul 25, 2010
1:33 PM
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Hm :) Weren't it you who asked about True Chromatic in ET??
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hvyj
490 posts
Jul 25, 2010
1:45 PM
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Yes Jim, that was me.
I only play ET because i think I am better able to play in tune playing ET. I don't play chrom very well, so i don't play chrom when i perform. But i do routinely play diatonic in multiple positions.
I don't play many chords. I happen to think that the inability to "build" chords on a diatonic is more of a limiting factor than the lack of a 12 tone chromatic scale. i feel this way because the chords available on a diatonic are fairly primitive, don't usually work in positions above third, and don't fit with a lot of material that is otherwise playable on a diatonic. So, i feel i can play more sophisticated music on a diatonic if I stay away from chords.
i find the tuning on your True Chromatic very interesting and i think it would be easier to learn to play than a standard chromatic. But your promo material talks about how you use a compromise tuning so various available chords will sound good. Personally, I'm not interested in playing chords and I definitely DON"T LIKE compromise tuning. So, I emailed to ask if it is possible to make a True Chromatic in ET. If i ever decide to get one, that's what i would order.
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jim
250 posts
Jul 25, 2010
2:08 PM
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Right, I thought that the nickname looks familiar, as well as the talk about ET :)
I regularly use compromise tuning on TrueChromatics because that's what will suit 90% of the players.
But because of the remaining 10%, I keep them untuned until someone actually buys one, so I can intonate them as required (half-valving would also mean tuning it all over again...)
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apskarp
278 posts
Jul 25, 2010
11:24 PM
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@Hvyj: Actually I have never thought of myself having very accurate ears, but as a yoga&meditation practitioner I am pretty good at noticing what happens in my body, so I've come to realize that I actually might have better ears than I've thought of... :DD
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