Soooo much is written here about OB, overdraw, etc. It almost feels like most feel they're a must...that you haven't 'made it' until you can do them. But, from time-to-time, I hear of some pretty well-respected players that simply don't do them. They may know how, but when they perform they're not used.
I'm about a year into playing, and my tummy tells me it's kinda blown out of proportion. Sure, it would be a nice technique to have down, but I'm more of a mind to work around it than spend a bunch of time on it. At least right now. There's been a helluva lot of great music produced without them.
So, who are the big names, and who here, that just don't bother with them?
My tummy also tells me this could turn into a fight. How about we avoid the obvious flash points. Please?
i think they are cool,but i love trad. harp the best,I havent got to the point in my learning that it matters really:-) i will be happy to learn the basics and get solid with that.hopefully:-)I love Lee Oskar and his music style is very complicated but i dont think he uses them.but i love what he does with all those harp choices.
I am responding from the who here side as opposed to the big name side, lol.
I just learned how to overblow about a month ago by accident, and I still haven't incorporated it into my playing, I don't have the control to manipulate them like I can regular bends.
For me and my approach to music, I am delighted to discover/learn any new technique that expands my capacity to express, so I do bother to keep playing around with it until I can use it.
On the other hand, I am totally delighted with where I am at in my playing, I have turned a corner, and what turns me on right now is playing with other musicians and having opportunities to improvise, and I am doing it with some very accomplished musicians.
I am not playing overblows, and it does not show up as a hindrance for me, of course when play a solo or comp, I am playing from the vocabulary of what I know, not fretting over what I don't.
I guess my stand is, I want to master overblows, so that I have much more to say.
But I am also a whole and complete musician without them, just have to express with a slightly more limited vocabulary.
And, yes, great music is made without them and always can and will be.
I didn't care very much for them but after my normal playing techniques developed and I switched from Suzuki's to SP20's, I found I was doing them without actually trying. Because I now find them relatively easy to do on-demand I'm slowly introducing them into my playing where I feel they will fit in with a tune but I wouldn't necessarily use them all the time.
At the moment I only consider them as a quick passing note because my technique is not sufficiently good enough to perform bends or any other tricks like vibrato with them.
I used to dislike them due to thier different timbre but now I can do them, they are not so bad.
Personally, i don't OB, but I do play in multiple positions. Nothing against OBing, I just never learned to do it and don't feel the need. I'm not saying it's a bad idea though. Nor am i claiming to be a big name player.
But what I find amusing are players who devote inordinate time learning to OB but who can't readily play scales, arpeggios, extension tones or positions above third. To function effectively on stage, playing in public with other musicians a player needs to be able to PLAY THE INSTRUMENT in a musical context, which involves a lot more than learning to OB and can be done competently w/o OBing at all.
What hvyj said. I don't play them, and not so much because I don't see them as necessary, but because I just haven't seen them important enough to take the time to learn and incorporate into my playing. I wish I had learned them(or even heard of them)when i was just starting out 20 years ago, then I probably would utilize them. I can be musical just fine without them-and there's a few less notes to have to be concerned about intonation on without them. I think if I ever get the time when I have absolutely nothing else to do, I will make it a point to learn them. That's doubtful any time soon, so they're kinda backburnered for now. ----------
Crescent City Harmonica Club Todd L Greene, Co-Founder
I don't OB. Have never tried. I'm with hvyi. Having the ability to OB in my quiver would be like having a Ferrari engine in a Ford Fiesta. ---------- The Art Teacher Formally Known As scstrickland
I have no interest in OB's (or custom harps) because the way I play still is unfolding and remains fresh to me without OB's and custom harps. If tonight I get hit by OB's, I will be on them like a madman. I care soley about me with my music and won't try to harness it in anyway. I have never tried to force a sound into my music. I let it all unfold on its own. Whatever that means to the world really doesn't concern me. I have nothing against OB's. Whatever fits your drive is the way to go. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
@waltertore: I find it much easier to hit bends on pitch with precision using custom harps. Maybe not as important to do for blues, but if you are playing jazz and are expected to play the heads to certain tunes correctly and need to bend notes in order to do it, it's much easier to do accurately on my Buddha harps than it is on my Suzuki Hammonds. FWIW.
hvj: That is great you have found what works for you. I do just fine with stock marine bands and delta frosts. I am sure if I played a custom harp I would like it, but to spend such amounts of $ on a harp just doesn't make sense to me when I am perfectly happy with the out of the box ones. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
hvyj.....I am guilty of getting caught up in techniques while I should have been working on musicality and rhythm. At Hill Country I realized my weakness...sure I can hit these OBs ODs, bend em with a pretty good tone...but I realized after hearing people like Sansone and Branch that my fancy notes weren't musical enough yet....while Gussow and Deak made me realize I gotta learn to groove!
I don't care if you overbend or not, the majority of blues harp will be on the lower half of the harp.
I've went back now and focused more on some of the advice Walter gives...let the music flow.
That said, I was fascinated by overbends and now that I play them I hope to eventually incorporate them into a more musical style playing.
I'm glad we don't all play the same style, use the same techniques, have the same tone.....how much fun would Hill Country have been if all those greats sounded the same??
@harpdude61: So many harmonica players try to force fit pre conceived blues licks over whatever material is being played, instead of PLAYING what fits the material and the groove. Same w/OBs.
BTW, I don't necessarily agree the the blues should mostly be played on the lower end of the harp. Playing mixolydian on the high register for variety in 2d position works just fine for blues--but most blues players don't do it because they've never heard it done on a blues record. But if you understand the blues scale and the mixolydian mode and understand how to use mixolydian for blues, you can PLAY that way. If you need an example, B.B. King uses mixolydian regularly for variety. I don't think he uses any OBs, though. FWIW.
Last Edited by on Jul 21, 2010 4:09 PM
I just wish the hell I could do them well--then I would be able to figure out if I want to use them or not.
I like the playing of many who use them, so it's really just a kind of humor in the past when I said that overblows are for wankers who are too lazy to work around the missing notes. . . ----------
@groyster1, what is perfect vibrato and tone. This is kind of subjective don't you think and perhaps not obtainable for some of us with warped minds that are never happy with our tone, vibrato or musicality. I couldn't agree more with you!
I OB because it is natural to my embouchure and it feels good to me. Do I care about it, no. Should a player spend countless hours trying to learn to overblow? I don't think so, a player should spend countless hours working to improve what they do do, better! Timing, space and tone are the king, over-blows are the pawn for the music with very few exceptions.
@ToddGreen needs no over-blow as he represented well in his post a few days ago of Use Me Up in 3rd, I didn't miss his OB once in that :)
@hvyj: You're wrong about B.B. King. He uses overblows all the time. Or, rather, he uses the guitar equivalent of OB's: #6ths, maj7ths, and b3rds, all of them as passing tones. That's one half of what makes BB's blues guitar style distinctive: his proto-jazz sensibility, the chromaticism that he got from T. Bone Walker and Django.
It was precisely because I loved what B. B. did, along with what blues/R&B sax guys like Hank Crawford and Gatortail Jackson did, that I realized how useful OB's could be.
This is the umpteenth thread on exactly the same subject: "Are overblows important? I don't really get them."
I'll say what I say every time: they're fun as hell, but they're no big deal. They just make a lot of cool things possible, in first, second, and third position, that are impossible without them. I can't imagine my own style without them. But I don't necessarily use OBs on every solo.
If you're a contemporary blues harp player who wants to steal licks from sax players, the three OBs that I use (4, 5, and 6 hole) are invaluable. But if you're a contemporary blues harp player who isn't interested in stealing licks from sax players, I wouldn't mess with them. They'll just complicate things too much. I'd prefer if we keep them a private matter, so that only a small, self-selecting coterie of advanced players even tries to master them.
Besides, they sound tinny and weak, and they're usually noticeably flat.
Stay away from them. Just steal stuff from Little Walter. That's enough to last you for the next forty years, and the mid-1950s were a wonderful time in America, except for the racism, the anti-Communist witch-hunts, and of course Pat Boone. If you stay away from overblows and just stick with what Little Walter did, you'll find that it's actually possible to LIVE in the mid-1950s, except without all the bad stuff.
Don't mess with overblows. Leave them to Chris, Jay, Alex, Jason, and me.
Last Edited by on Jul 21, 2010 7:14 PM
I would like to throw some overblows in my game here and there but I cant seem to make them work. And..I'm not going to tinker with the inside of a harp much. (my history with that shows many dead harps sent to junk box). They sound pretty good when used sparsely but I guess I am doomed. The mechanics just aren't naturally there and I won't put in the time to get it right.
Yeah kudzurunner, that is what I mean. I play this blues jam on Sundays with these awsome players, even the jammers are impressive, I'm honored to play with them.
We play pure blues with the big Texas setup: drums guitar, bass, organ, piano sometimes, brass and sax.
We always do some jazzy standards.
Some of the lines that the sax and the organist in particular play, man I want a piece of that!
This kid the other night blew me away on sax, strutting around like a rooster playing that popping staccato style I love, with lots of colorful passing notes, I love that shit!
Right now I'm just putting a lot of heart into some pentatonic type stuff, and I am happy with it and it seems to impact the listeners, but I want to engage in some call and response interplay with these cats on their turf, that's why I want it!
One thing that drew me to the harp is its misleadingly humble and simple reputation, but with massive capacity for soulful expression. The more I can get out of this thing, the more fulfilled I am.
Just as you can play nice stuff without the all out tongue block sound you can play nice stuff without ob's. I don't know what all the fuss is about. One specific sound or chromatism on an instrument are soo small parts of the essense of what's music that they are really of no importance, IMO.
As can be seen with hvyi and bigd, a vast range of music far outside of blues can be explored without ob's.
Last Edited by on Jul 21, 2010 7:52 PM
They aren't necessary to learn to play a range of music on the harp, but they are often a catalyst to get players to do so. hvj's first post here is perfect. ---------- Mike
joeleebush,.. although harder ob's can just as well be learned with ootb harps. Just check by one of the mbh chat's (that should be organised again some time soon) and there'll be some peers (pros..?) helping you to get it down.
Another thought...on this forum they are a big thing. Most the "pros" around here make comment after comment about how wonderful the modern Ricci-esque style of phrasing and liberal use of chromatic lines is all the rage and a key component to being "great".
Of the young players gushed about here, how many don't ob?
I am not knocking that style, but it is in the in thing. ---------- Mike
Well, I'm convinced. I'm going to spend a few hundred dollars on a custom harp (or a few) that will OB but loose responsiveness (er sumthin'), and spend countless hours learning to OB so I can make notes that sound tinny, weak and noticeably flat!
Last Edited by on Jul 21, 2010 8:49 PM
I don't invest the time to learn how to incorporate them into my playing. I'm sure that I don't need them to do what I want to do. I have a lot of other stuff that I need to worry about. My time is better spent on singing and playing out as much as I can.
Overblows don't factor into the equation for me. If harp players view what I do as simple, that's fine by me. I want to be able to deliver a song with the emotion that is intended by the author of the tune.
I made sure to learn at least the six overblow for one specific reason: So that I could hit the minor third on the middle octave and transpose all of my licks from the first octave. Learning it didn't take me much longer than learning to bend.
Last Edited by on Jul 21, 2010 9:04 PM
@LittleJoe: Nah, I ain't gonna ban you. I'm laughing. I've known for a long time that dry wit doesn't translate--at least for some readers--on the internet. You've resoundingly proved that point. Which is to say, you missed my point so completely that I feel like a knuckleballer having kick-ass day.
What I communicated at 7:12 PM, in the first paragraph, was pure truth. If you know anything about B.B. King's playing style and influences, you'll surely agree. If you don't, please go and make an intensive study of B. B. King. Read his autobiography, BLUES ALL AROUND ME. I've read it ten times and taught it ten times. B. B. doesn't always use the sort of chromaticism I talk about; sometimes he keeps it simple. But he's always modern--he never plays guitar behind his vocals, for example, like his uncle Bukka White, and that's the result of his conscious decision to be modern rather than "traditional." But sometimes, often when he takes extended cadenzas at the ends of songs, he throws in all the overblows. So to speak.
Paragraphs 2, 3, and 4 were also meant in earnest, and are true. I'm bearing witness to my own 23-year experiment with overblows. (Including, in paragraph 3, the longstanding tradition of players who can't do them or don't really like them casting aspersions on them, which is something I've confronted for at least twenty years.)
Starting in the middle of paragraph 5, I suddenly realized that it was possible to segue from honest witness-bearing to the purest sort of facetiousness. Blues singers do that all the time. B. B. does that in "How Blue Can You Get."
I continued in the entirely facetious vein from that point in my 7:12 post until the end.
Apparently you missed the segue.
Or, if you got it, you didn't like it.
But you didn't take the time to clarify your reaction. You just got pissed off, and spewed.
You're a blues guy.
Since it obviously upset you, I'll try to avoid facetiousness in the future. I'm so sorry. Please forgive me. And don't worry: I won't ban you.
Last Edited by on Jul 22, 2010 4:59 AM
As cheesy as they are, this forum needs those little emoticons;our common sarcasm and facetiousness might not be taken wrong so often, and the almighty ban hammer might not get wielded so often.
back on-topic:I think if I were to sit down with a fluid OB player such as beltone, Kudzu, hell, any of y'all-for a good day or so with no other distractions, I would learn to not only hit them at will, but usefully and tastefully incorporate them into my playing. Or I could just continue to insist that Harvey sabotages my harps and makes the reeds out of Unobtanium so I can't hit OBs...enter winking emoticon here. ----------
Crescent City Harmonica Club Todd L Greene, Co-Founder
What came 1st the overblow technique or the Southerly Busters?
my problem is im unfamiliar with this technique and not knowing what I'm listening for, how can i make judgement on wether it's of value to me or not?
All i ever hear is a lot of wind gushing no one has ever botherd to post a vidio clip of there Overblow Ninja technique being demostrated, if they have like i say i don't know what i'm listening for:(
and just how does someone accidently do an overblow and reconise it if they have never done it befor, just what where they trying to do if they got the note but wern't realy trying to do it???
what do we do with this Technique, how do we use it in a song or Phrase, is it a note you can sustian or is it a note used for clancing over a passage,
Adam you are Known as an OverBlower and teach this method from the threads above i read some of your students have masterd this Nija technique, but are still frustrated and don't know how to incorporate it into there playing,
other Members like myself Have heard so mush Wind Gushing about this technique and no demostrations of this method that we just couldn't be botherd,
it's like that smart kid down the road always performing a fancy trick on his BMX not bothering to show his mates the finer details of the trick, so his mates tell him to go do himself and smoke his ass with some other trick he can't do:( so no one acheives anything of Value:(
So it's not that i don't care for this technique it's just the way it has been portrayed to me as some Smart ass Fancy trick:(
Do i need this trick possibly,, possibly not i was just mentioning to my Bro the other day i woudn't mind listening to Trombone or Trumpet Players to get that big Wah Wah Wah sound Happening with my Hand Wahs,
But alass all ive heard is wind Gushing and who can Blow the Hardest:(
---------- A Southerly Buster is a Big Wind Front that amounts to nothing but a week Breeze it blows hard at first but offers nothing of value:(
Last Edited by on Jul 22, 2010 5:47 PM
enough about overblows.what about over draws:-)Im kinda serious on that,i know what a overblow is sort of but im confussed on the other 1.Overdraws? what are they? where are they?And whats a Ninja tec. sounds cool?
Last Edited by on Jul 22, 2010 6:17 AM
Sorry Adam. I was trying to differentiate this from the other umpteen threads, just a little, by stating the skill seems to be overemphasized HERE. The point was to try to get some perspective; take it beyond MBH and maybe learn some of the big-name players that don't bother with it. Who?
It seems to me there's some skill involved in NOT OBing -- in knowing how and when to work around the missing notes. And that's not to diminish OB -- it certainly has its place. When?
I hear so much about setting up harps for OB too. Experience tells me there's gonna be a trade off -- something else likely doesn't work as well afterwords. What?
I wonder if people rush ahead to get their OB merit badge, when they really haven't done all the prerequisites first. What's the cost to the new or intermediate player who concludes he's got to jump ahead to OBs?
Soooo much written here about them that it would be easy to conclude it's a must. I suspect the importance of OB is overemphasized.
LittleJoe> If you disagree with someone, and feel strongly enough about it that you need to respond, how about you put a little thought into it and maybe even say why you disagree? Burping up a profanity doesn't really add much to the discussion.
OBs are nothing more than another note. The intentional use of the OB was around long before the traditional blues stylists ie little walter, sonny boy, big walter et al.
Most people have the notion they are more difficult than regular note or that you're an advanced player if you can pop one out.
This same phenomena can be found with the positions. It seems the higher the number the more difficult the position is ala 11th and 12th position.
What most don't realize is 11th is really just cross harp played in a minor key and 12th is really just 3rd played in a major key.
When you all put in enough time to learn music as a whole and not just traditional harmonica blues you will realize that what I am saying is the truth.
If you want to use them fine. If you don't, fine. At the end of the day, it's your music and I as the listener have the choice to listen or not.
Technique doesn't matter as long as you remain interesting.
---------- "All is bliss"
Last Edited by on Jul 22, 2010 7:26 AM
I remember buying Richard Hunter's Jazz Harp book in the early 90s and trying unsuccessfully to play them on my stock Lee Oskars. I gave up, assuming that the torsional twisting squeal was my technique.
Then came the internet and I learned that, in this case it was my choice of harps that had held the overblows back for a decade or so. I bought a few Golden Melodies and there they were; out of the box on high keys, just a little gapping on the low keys.
I can play them (although overdraws give me hiccups!) and I'm starting to put them into my woodshed noodling. On stage though, I play less and less harp and do more vocals. I still gig with my Oskars and only once have I found myself going for the overblow only to find that horrible dog whistle noise.
Mike's right; if twenty years ago, all this information had been available, overblowing would be a much bigger part of my arsenal. You can teach an old dog new tricks, but it just takes a lot more work and practice to break the old habits. The younger players seem to accept them more willingly. I presume, they have learnt them alongside all the other techniques, rather than, as in my case, trying to shoe-horn them in decades after I learned the basics.
@Kudzu : please don't stop being facetious ! It's good to laugh sometimes.
I care for OB as much as for Little Walter, that means really not much. I learned how to pop them (the OB's, not LW) and with a properly set up harp I'd probably could make them sound correct, but since I began to play half-valved I don't really care for OB's.
The H-V harp gives as many extra notes (maybe more ?) and is much more easy to learn than overblows and overdraws. And they sound like regular notes, not like forced ones.
The only "problem" I see is that the HV promaster sounds almost too "pretty" : it doesn't have that "crispy/crunchy" sound of the Marine Band. I wonder how would sound a half-valved MB ? ---------- http://www.buddybrent.be
In defense of OBs...I hate hearing.."I got the overblow and it sounds weak, tinny, and flat". Hell yes it does, but be proud you are getting it. Now is time to woodshed. The first time you bent the two hole draw, it did not sound like it did a year or so later. All overbends can be developed into a nice tone that you can bend up. Hitting them already bent is on my woodshed list soon...just like learning to hit a draw or blow bend alrady bent.
I'm suprised too that some people who oberblow 4,5,6 really well have not tried to get the 7 overdraw. Wnen you get this note and can bend it up, you can do the same type stuff you do wailing on the 1 and 4 draw bent and unbent. Same notes.
In a sense, if you don't overbend, it is like having a 3 octave piano with 7 of the black keys missing. You can still do some fantastic stuff, I'm sure.
They are just bent notes, like any other. As a player who learned to play without knowledge of them, only to discover them around the time I discovered this forum, I didn't miss them. I know I'd be able to possibly incorporate a few more notes into scales I play if I took the time to perfect them. It's like having driven the same car for 20 years with a little crack in the windshield. You learn to adapt because it's always been there. One day, you get a new windshield. Nice, but I can still drive the car with that same old windshield. Maybe not the best analogy, but you get my point.
----------
Crescent City Harmonica Club Todd L Greene, Co-Founder
Last Edited by on Jul 22, 2010 7:19 AM
Gloth: I'll have a valved Promaster in my grubby little mits in a day or two. I kinda want to explore that path a little myself. Worst case I rip them valves off and have another Promaster for a possible alternate tuning later. ----------
OK, evidently I missed the wit. Just seemed kinda snarky. My sax player and myself have this ongoing repartee where we take turns giving each other a hard time...but it's just fun.
Adam..you touched on some serious subjects that I thought you were minimizing. I apologize if I misinterpreted, but I have had too many friends adversely impacted by negative stereotypes....and there is today a resurgence of this ugliness that I thought was long past us. There is a nativism evident today in politics that I am sensitive to, and which I am close to. The overt racism is appalling. This does not apply to you. What I'm saying is that we all have to be careful to not give these retrogrades any kind of an opening. They REALLY don't get humor, and will take as serious, stuff that gets broadcast on the internet.
OB'ing is another technique for bending, that's all. I use them ( sometimes ) in 4th position. Most of the time, they are just extra notes. Like with the Bosendorfer example I cited, some can use them. I would say Oscar Peterson did appropriately. But did Victor Borge really NEED a Bosendorfer for what he did ?
Adam, I'm in tears. I think you've just provided a great example of how to answer a ridiculous question. With humor. My favorite part of the 50's was polio.
"Technique doesn't matter as long as you remain interesting."
As a lifetime blues lover, I agree with that to an extent-- if by "interesting" we allow that the ability to move people, in the way the deepest blues can, is interesting.
Sonny Boy williamson singing and playing "Mighty LOng Time" moved me when I first heard it on vinyl in the 60s, and still does. Is it interesting? To me it is, because it touches me. There is plenty of harp technique there, so subtly used it might not be recognized. I'm talking about timing, tone control by use of the hands, and pitch control-- deliberate use of the pitches that reside in the cracks between the piano keys.
If by interesting we mean only the ability to play notes or rhythms that haven't been heard before, without looking for some kind of emotion, I disagree with the statement. This forum is still about Modern Blues Harmonica, right? My emphasis on BLUES is not because diatonic harp in the western world has traditionally been used to play blues. I would be playing blues even if my chosen instrument were oboe.
I have a feeling that for many here, they'd prefer the forum dealt with Modern Harmonica, drop the word blues. That's all right, we all like what we like. But I do look for "blues feel" when I evaluate the interesting harmonica players I find through this forum. If the blues feel isn't there (hard to define, but many of you know what it is), I may find the harp interesting, but I put it on the "interesting" shelf, and move on.
So much of this is a matter of taste. I'm sharing mine.
Besides, they sound tinny and weak, and they're usually noticeably flat.
Stay away from them. Just steal stuff from Little Walter. That's enough to last you for the next forty years, and the mid-1950s were a wonderful time in America, except for the racism, the anti-Communist witch-hunts, and of course Pat Boone. If you stay away from overblows and just stick with what Little Walter did, you'll find that it's actually possible to LIVE in the mid-1950s, except without all the bad stuff.
LOL. That was an awesome parody of one of those unschooled assholes we get here from time to time who think that everyone who doesn't choose to use OBs only listens to Little Walter. Nice one. Also that traditional blues fans are racists, ultra-conservative and dig the worst white music ever created.
Nice, man. Nice. You nailed the irrationalism of those OB bigots.
Pluto - great send back on the original gag. Guys who dig Chicago or West Coast or Texas or New Orleans blues = the scourge of polio. Awesome! I am killing myself laughing, guys. Too much, too much.
