jonlaing
9 posts
Jul 21, 2010
1:11 PM
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So, I know that 2nd position is good for blues, 3rd for dorian minor stuff, 4th and 5th for natural minor, 11th and 12th for jazzy stuff. I was wondering about positions 6-10, though. Do any of them lend themselves to a particular style of music or a particular type of scale? Or are they only really for switching keys on one harp? I don't really hear them talked about much.
Thanks,
-Jon
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ridge
50 posts
Jul 21, 2010
1:18 PM
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The reason it's mostly unmentioned is because you get banned for talking about those positions.
Just like you get your a$$ beat for talking about Fight Club.
Sorry, I don't have a real answer for you. Great question though and I eagerly await to see what becomes of this thread.
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harpdude61
272 posts
Jul 21, 2010
1:35 PM
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I'm just exploring 6th position and finding the blues scale works pretty well. I love the blues scale in 5th position too.....but that is where my issues are. I learn the blues scale everytime I learn a new position.
I wonder if learning the scales and modes should be emphasized more than positions.
Some people that don't OB use alternate positions which makes sense.
I would love to see a list of popular cover songs and the best position for each...or at least some examples of a few songs in each position.
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hvyj
469 posts
Jul 21, 2010
2:13 PM
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"I wonder if learning the scales and modes should be emphasized more than positions."
Yes! Learning the pentatonic scales is the best and easiest way to learn to play in different positions. THIS IS BECAUSE THERE ARE COMMON BREATH PATTERNS.
Minor pentatonic scale in 5th has the same breath pattern as the major pentatonic scale in 2d. Same notes, different starting point.
Major pentatonic scale in 1st has same breath pattern as minor pentatonic scale in 4th.
Minor pentatonic scale in 3rd has same breath pattern as major pentatonic scale in 12th.
You can often play the same tune in different positions. Not every position will work for every tune, though. To choose the "right" position for playing a certain tune, I pick the position that gives me a mode that has most of the notes I need to play that particular tune and I bend for the other notes I need (and, if necessary, I lay out on those passages I can't play). That may not be what they teach a Julliard or Berklee, but it's a very practical and effective method to use.
Also, one has to be careful about playing chords--the chords on the instrument don't always work well in positions above 3rd, and if you're playing material other than simple blues and certain rock, the chords available may not work/fit very well anyway no matter what position you are in. Think/play scales, modes, chord tones and extension tones instead of chords.
FWIW.
Last Edited by on Jul 21, 2010 2:27 PM
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snakes
552 posts
Jul 21, 2010
3:46 PM
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Is there a place to find these scales tabbed out for harps?
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hvyj
475 posts
Jul 21, 2010
3:55 PM
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@snakes: Not that i am aware of. They are not in any instructional,material i've ever seen. I figured them out myself. It was hard to figure out, but is real easy to understand if explained.
I think i posted tabs for the common breath patterns on MBH earlier this year, but I don't remember what the thread was called. i don't have them written out anywhere, but i can play them. I can post the tab if you want me to, but i don't have time to do it right this minute.
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snakes
553 posts
Jul 21, 2010
3:59 PM
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If you have it digital that would be great. I am trying to get my arms around the circle of 5th's etc. and just haven't got her done. I think it would benefit me greatly to do more varied scales. Or if you don't care to post and have digital you can email me at wfollis@msn.com. Much appreciated thanks!
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hvyj
477 posts
Jul 21, 2010
4:26 PM
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@snakes; Don't have a recording of them. But, I'll post tab when i have time.
Last Edited by on Jul 21, 2010 4:29 PM
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jonlaing
10 posts
Jul 21, 2010
8:42 PM
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i just use the scale finder on overblow.com, it's never steered me wrong. But thanks for the responses guys. I'll probably play more with the pentatonic scales to familiarize myself with those peculiar positions.
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mr_so&so
340 posts
Jul 22, 2010
1:47 PM
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I've posted this before, but since you ask, here is a link to harp tab for chromatic scales in 12 positions. You can pull out the scales you want from there.
And thanks again, hvyj, for repeating that excellent info. You will see what he means if you study the position tables linked above.
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GermanHarpist
1650 posts
Jul 22, 2010
4:36 PM
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hvyi, would you be so kind to post that information in your profile info. So that when someone is interested you can just refer them to click on your username... So that the info doesn't get buried again in the depth of mbh history.
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hvyj
479 posts
Jul 22, 2010
11:06 PM
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@GH: I'm flattered. The first time i posted it, nobody actually seemed to be interested. I'll have time to post it over the weekend.
But, I'm not sure I know how to put info. in my profile.
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jonlaing
17 posts
Jul 23, 2010
1:53 AM
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@mr_so&so: That's Awesome! Thanks so much!
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jonlaing
18 posts
Jul 23, 2010
1:58 AM
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@mr_so&so: Hey just a quick question, what do the roman numerals at the top of each diagram represent? And also to clarify, the b2 means flat second right? and like wise b3 is the flat third? just making sure.
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GermanHarpist
1652 posts
Jul 23, 2010
4:07 AM
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hvyi, I bumped the profile description thread...
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J-Sin
20 posts
Jul 23, 2010
5:20 AM
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Check out my MySpace-page below and listen to "Totafot". I play C harp in C#.
I use 8th position all the time. It's wonderful for Arabian and Turkish music, much better choice for some of my stuff than any other position. Here's why:
- In the 1st octave, you can create scales where almost every note is bent. With correct intonation and vibrato the music cries like a prayer.
- When the tonic is a bent note, it has power and soul.
- 2nd octave is not that much harder to play than any other positions, and overblows offer interesting bending possibilities.
It's hard at first, but when the spirit of this kind of music gets you, you start to get hang of it. It's a wonderful and very expressive technique.
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Reed to the Beat!
http://www.myspace.com/triplejaysinister
http://www.myspace.com/ataturkband
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ridge
54 posts
Jul 23, 2010
6:02 AM
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J-Sin, Totafot it definitely cool. Thanks for giving the key of harp, the key of the music and the position. I will be studying this over the weekend!
Edit: So the root is C# which means tonic is 1D bend, 4D bend, 7 overdraw and 10 overdraw on a C diatonic?
Last Edited by on Jul 23, 2010 6:05 AM
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Buddha
2298 posts
Jul 23, 2010
6:09 AM
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I play arabic, armenian and hindustani music in 7th and 8th positions.
Recently I have been working on becoming 100% fluent in 10th and 9th. 10th is pretty good for jazz and 9th is pretty good for Blues but I'm not a serious fan of either one.
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"All is bliss"
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J-Sin
21 posts
Jul 23, 2010
6:25 AM
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@Ridge: Right. It's a good practice especially for your 7 overdraw. I wouldn't use 10od, though - I love my audience too much.
Another good example of this position - from a whole another scale and mood - is Howard Levy's Raga Fantasy from Out Of The Box DVD.
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Reed to the Beat!
http://www.myspace.com/triplejaysinister
http://www.myspace.com/ataturkband
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ridge
55 posts
Jul 23, 2010
6:29 AM
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Yeah I love myself too much to use 10OD on anything outside of a G harp. Thanks for your response, J-Sin!
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mr_so&so
341 posts
Jul 23, 2010
7:59 AM
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@jonlaing, I forgot to put a description of the tab, etc. in that document too, but I suppose it is clear enough.
Yes b3, means flat 3rd in the position. The major scale is indicated as 1,2,3, ...7, and I labeled all of the chromatic half steps in between as flats, not sharps (ignoring whatever convention there might be in normal music notation).
The Roman numerals in the column headings indicate notes that fall into the I, IV, and V chords and also the dominant 7th of the extended I7, IV7, and V7 chords. I just show only those chords since they are of greatest interest to blues players. If you study up on your chord theory you can work out the tones belonging any chords from the charts.
Have fun with it.
Edit: taking GH's advice above I've added the link to the chromatic scales document in my profile, and added the missing descriptive info above there too.
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Last Edited by on Jul 23, 2010 8:15 AM
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Micha
125 posts
Jul 23, 2010
10:35 AM
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hvyj:
I think it was in this thread that I started:
http://www.modernbluesharmonica.com/board/board_topic/5560960/543077.htm
The info you gave there was extremely valuable for me. I'm now practicing them as much as I can. I can not thank you enough!
Last Edited by on Jul 23, 2010 10:35 AM
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hvyj
480 posts
Jul 23, 2010
4:36 PM
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@micha: Yes, now that you mention it, I think my earlier post was in a thread that you started, but I can't make your link work. Anyway, I'm delighted that you found the info helpful. I'm going to post the 3 common pentatonic breath patterns again one at time in separate posts under this thread.
But, for a reference point, we need to be clear about what a major pentatonic scale is and what a minor pentatonic scale is. Both of these scales are easy to play on a diatonic harmonica and are extremely useful for improvising/soloing over a wide variety of material.
MAJOR PENTATONIC: Root 2d 3d 5th 6th octave
MINOR PENTATONIC: Root b3d 4th 5th b7th octave
The above descriptions give the degrees of the scale tones that comprise each respective scale.
The Major Pentatonic scale is sometimes referred to as the "country scale" but it's used in many other styles of music as well.
Add a b5th to the Minor Pentatonic scale and you have the blues scale. Actually, in the blues scale the third is played as a quarter tone flat "blue third" and in the minor pentatonic scale the third is played as a true half step flat minor third. Of course, if you are playing minor blues, you MUST play a true minor third.
Last Edited by on Jul 24, 2010 12:55 AM
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hvyj
481 posts
Jul 23, 2010
4:48 PM
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Second Position MAJOR PENTATONIC SCALE through 2 registers (key of G on a C harp):
D2/B3 D3** D3 4D 5B 6B 6D 7D 8D 8B 9B
Fifth Position MINOR PENTATONIC SCALE through 2 registers (key of E minor on a C harp):
B2 D2/B3 D3** D3 4D 5B 6B 6D 7D 8D 8B
SAME NOTES, same breath pattern, just start on a different hole: B2 for 5th position minor pentatonic / D2 for 2d position major pentatonic. You can extend either scale in either direction and still get "right notes" for each scale using the same breath pattern: D1 B9 and D10 are scale tones in each scale.
This works because G major is the relative major of E minor and if you play a C harp in 2d position you get G major which has the same notes as E minor. But you don't need to know, understand or remember that in order to learn the common breath pattern....MORE TO COME!
Last Edited by on Jul 23, 2010 5:02 PM
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hvyj
482 posts
Jul 24, 2010
12:09 AM
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First Position MAJOR PENTATONIC SCALE through 3 registers (key of C on a C harp):
1B 1D 2B 2D/3B 3D** 4B 4D 5B 6B 6D 7B 8D 8B 9B 10D 10B
Fourth Position MINOR PENTATONIC SCALE through 2 registers (key of A minor on a C harp):
3D** 4B 4D 5B 6B 6D 7B 8D 8B 9B 10D
You can extend the A minor pentatonic scale in either direction by playing the complete pattern for the C major pentatonic scale.
This works because A minor is the relative minor of C major. Same notes. So, 4th position is actually a straight harp position since when you play 4th you are actually playing the harp in the key it is in since A minor and C major each have the exact same scale, but just starting on a different note. Again, you don't need to understand this in order to learn the common breath pattern.
Last Edited by on Jul 24, 2010 1:03 AM
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hvyj
483 posts
Jul 24, 2010
12:37 AM
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Third Position MINOR PENTATONIC SCALE through 3 registers (key of D minor on a C harp):
1D 2D** 2D/3B 3D** 4B 4D 5D 6B 6D 7B 8D 9D 9B 10D 10B
Twelfth Position MAJOR PENTATONIC SCALE through 2 registers (key of F on a C harp):
2D** 2D/3B 3D** 4B 4D 5D 6B 6D 7B 8D 9D
You can extend either scale down to 1B and you can extend the F major pentatonic scale up using the same breath pattern as the D minor pentatonic scale. This works because F major is the relative major of D minor.
Learn the 3 breath patterns tabbed out in these posts plus the blues scale in Second Position and you will automatically be able to play in SIX positions well enough to solo and improvise if you've got a good enough ear.
It also is helpful to remember which hole is which degree of the scale in which position--that is something you can figure out by superimposing he degrees of each scale over the tab. The tab for each scale always starts on the root note of that particular scale. I could tab the degrees of each scale out for you, but it will be easier to remember (good exercise) if you do it yourself using the information I've provided.
Btw, there is also a common breath pattern shared by Eleventh Position and Second Position, but you may have to ask Buddha about that one because I don't know it.
Anyway, I hope this stuff is helpful.
Last Edited by on Jul 24, 2010 1:47 PM
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Micha
126 posts
Jul 24, 2010
4:24 AM
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This is very valuable information! Thank you for that Hvyj!
I think the minor pentatonic in 2nd positions are the same notes as the major pentatonic in 11th. Only the root is then on the 3 draw half step bend. (correct me if I'm wrong)
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hvyj
484 posts
Jul 24, 2010
6:51 AM
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@GH: Okay, I've put the tabs in my profile to be preserved for reference.
@Micha: Once I figured this stuff out it has been really helpful to me in learning to play multiple positions proficiently. I don't understand why none of the popular instructional materials I've seen explain these relationships. But I'm happy to share.
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