This is NOT one of those for/against threads. I am a lip purser that is in the process of learning to tongue block. I've read all the debates between the two, but there is one I'm not sure about.
Deak commented in another post about learning to tongue block and the big tone that came with it. Is it a settled issue that tongue blocking brings with it a deeper, richer tone than lip pursing?
At Hill Country, I jammed on some Howlin Wolf with Johnny Sansone during lunch. One of the other players came to me afterward and asked how I could play and bend the 6 overblow so well while tongue blocking. I said I was lip pursing. He said "oh no, I saw how deeply the harp was in your mouth and I heard the tongue-blocker tone". I was pursing.
I play Golden Melodys and I guess I picked up my embochure from a youtube vid. I tilt the harp up and my upper lip is actually hanging over the back of the harp while I play. I heeded some other advice I read early on that said to imagine your mouth open like you were holding a baseball in it and your throat held open with a golf ball....lol...Made sense as far as resonance is concerned.
Any other lip pursers play that deep? Are there any disadvantages to playing with such a deep,lip pursed embochure? Is the resonance chamber bigger while tongue blocking?
Last Edited by on Jul 19, 2010 9:43 AM
I play with the harp pretty deep in my mouth and with my jaw open and the back of my throat open and sit up very straight or stand while practicing. Once you know what a note sounds like in tongue blocking it is pretty easy to figure out how to get that same deep resonant tone with lip pursing using an open mouth and throat cavity. I still prefer to play lip pursing but I do occasionally use tongue blocking for octaves and some other embellishments. I've barley been playing a year and I'm taking Dave Barrett's online course which he tries to focus you on tongue blocking but he even says if lip pursing feels better for you then do it as long as you can also add some tongue blocking techniques for added effects that can only be accomplished with tongue blocking.
"Is it a settled issue that tongue blocking brings with it a deeper, richer tone than lip pursing?" Some find it does, but no, it is not a settled issue...if you concentrate on getting a full sound, by either method, you will get there.
There is no "TB tone" - many of those who profess to be able to tell by ear simply cannot.
I remember a jam I went to, I had just got my chops round TB'ing everything except blow bends & me and a pal met another harp player who professed to U block, "no, no , no", we told him, "you're doing it wrong!". Anyhow, we all got a turn at playing, & once we all back off the stage we had to admit that he really didn't need to change a thing...he sounded great.
You might get a larger chamber more easily if TB'ing, but that doesn't mean that everybody does...& there's more to do with it than TB/LP...you need to consider the whole windpipe/throat/soft palate (sounds like you already are).
In reality, most players combine both embouchures to some degree, some might be 90%/10% others might be 60%/40% but VERY few players are solely one or the other.
Explore both & see how they facilitate you playing the music you want to play, some guys like to use LP to TB when performing octave jumps, or large intervals accross the harp (others can simply use either side of the tongue)...there's no right/wrong, concentrate on making a good sound & bear in mind, if you get a great sound right off the bat then you are one of the very lucky few, the rest of us have had to fool about some to find it.
"There is no "TB tone" - many of those who profess to be able to tell by ear simply cannot."
I have to sort of disagree. For single notes,that certainly applies. But when it comes to split octaves,pulls and slaps,you know the tongue is involved. You can certainly get full deep tone LP,but you're not going to be able to do those other things.
I don't believe there is a big difference in single open note tone between TB and LP. However there is a HUGE difference in the ability to alter one's tone with the WAH technique, having to do with the ability to seal off the entire FRONT of the harp in TB position. You get a MUCH deeper wah this way, whether acoustic or amplified. You can't (or at least, I can't) do this in LP. I made a similar comment as ONE of the reasons to TB in the "don't lose that little paper" thread. ---------- /Greg
I suspect that many people, when they talk about the 'superior tone' of tongue blocking, are actually talking about the various ornamentations that are part of the blues sound - slaps and pulls or the wah that Greg mentions. It is a lot harder (but not impossible) to replicate those techniques with a lip-block.
...or maybe they equate lip blocking with thin, wispy tone because their own lip blocking technique is below par? just a thought.
Look to Mr Gussow - he mixes both techniques, but unless he actually points it out, I can't tell when he switches from one embouchure to the other.
I use both and can fool a lot of people who may think one way or the other and often go back and forth between the methods often in midphrase. Each method has both distinct advantages as well as their own disadvantages as well. I know Kim Wilson uses both methods as well, often also switching back and forth as well too.
The thing about making both of them work is how you manipulate not just your embouchure, but also (and VERY importantly) the inside shape of your mouth as well to create a large resonating cavity in the mouth, but for both methods, you need to be PHYSICALLY RELAXED 100% of the time or it just won't work well at all and the average player is often FAR less than that. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Great answers! I agree with what Greg said about wahs. I have noticed....By lip pursing, I can get a better, deeper throat vibrato on notes that bend deep like 3 hole bent 1 1/2 steps....On hole six I do a drill with 5 notes up and down, 6 blow, 6 draw bent, 6 draw, 6 OB and 6 OB bent up. I can't make it happen at all tongue blocking....I have had no problems doing splits. 2 holes or 3 holes blocked came pretty quickly. That going to one side is messing with me. I wonder if I'm not trying to be too extreme. Bob is probably correct. Sometimes tension creeps in while trying to learn something new. It just looks like some TBers are playing completly out of the side of their mouth.....I saw Kim recently. Great show! Hope I can catch the T-Birds in Asheville this weekend.
Yes, I mean hand wahs. You absolutely, positively can't get as deep a wah when some front holes of the harp are left open to free air as when every hole that isn't actually being played is physically blocked by tobgue, cheek, hands, thumbs, whatever works. If you're a lip purser and don't believe this, put a piece of tape over all the holes but one of them, and try your WAH. Then try without the tape. ---------- /Greg
good point greg, but it seems that lots of wah comes from mouth position (e.g. the way Ricci plays wha, he could do it without cupping), and for me at least, it is easier to do the mouth contortions required for this without having my tongue anchored to the harp.
just to keep a debate that will never be resolved going for yet another post :-)
Tuckster - I was talking about tone (body of a note/chord), not artifacts/techniques that obviously require the tongue, like octave splits/tongue flutters/tongue warbles...it's a given that the tongue is required for these things (tongue slaps can be emulated with the lips)...as I also said, the vast majority of players mix it up to some degree.
If someone plays a piece without using effects that necessitate the tongue, then it is virtually impossible to tell one from the other IF the player is as proficient in both techniques.
@Greg "Not sure what you're doing with your mouth, but, at least in my book, a wah effect is purely a hand-only effect." I'm not entirely sure that's the case, if you emulate saying "wah" as you wah, then it seems to help reinforce the effect...like the subtle but effective lip/mouth shapes that colour the Sonny Terry style.
@NOD - I think your example is not a particularly strong one.
"this is Blues with no Feeling no nothing zip:("
I actually think there's plenty of feeling there. I believe that the guy is really into it and is genuinly enjoying what he's doing. Furthermore he has a great sense of timing. Listen to his foot tapping. The guy has a built in metronome and can keep time with no backing track. There're lots of people who would love to have that quality.
Does it sound great? No. But not because he's trying to lip purse a tongue blocked classic. It doesn't sound particularly good mainly because he hasn't developed enough skill yet to select the right notes and has yet to develop a nice tone.
What he has are some nice raw qualities. If the guy perseveres with learning the technical side of how to play those raw qualities will put him in good stead to play great music.
Sorry man, but the way he sounds at this stage has nothing to do with whether he LPs or TBs.
---------- "You will never get every possible thing out of an instrument, but the instrument will get every possible thing out of you" - Ray Charles.
I agree with Lee. This guy is a harp player. But certainly if he came to me and said, "Teach me," I'd introduce him to tongue blocking. I'd also try to improve his lip pursing technique, helping him develop more strength and precision.
I agree greg a wah wah effect is an acoustic effect done with your right waving, but I know what Walter is talking about because I also do the effect he mentioned! I discovered it by accident!! It is an amplified embelishment that works well when your amp is cranked and your getting that; my amp is about to blow up sound! You get the biggest tone you can than simply articulate wah letting up slighly on your cupping while doing it. I do it mainly on the two hole bent down a full tone. Then when released I'll either do hand wah or vibrato. To me it sounds cool going from one to the other! It isn't any mind blowing thing. It's just another thing. Lee I like your ray Charles qoute!
I am a lip purser learning to tongue block. I've read all the debates, but one I'm not sure about.
Deak commented learning to tongue block and the big tone that came with it. Is it a settled issue that tongue blocking brings with it a deeper, richer tone than lip pursing?
Bro YES & NO
for me Yes I'm happy to say yes both techniques played correctly or simutanously are pleasant to the ear:)
At Hill Country, I jammed on some Howlin Wolf with Johnny Sansone during lunch. One of the other players came to me afterward and asked how I could play and bend the 6 overblow so well while tongue blocking. I said I was lip pursing.
It sounds if you have your LP tone down pat good work
But ok Bro's im not into this Overblow stuff simply because i haven't heard this technique being played i think i may have heard very bad samples of it, but why is there a pre conceived Beleif that this technique can only be done LP
Im not bagging it but it has me confused,Im TB and more than confident i could do this
Any other lip pursers play that deep?
Bro's unfortunatly about 98% of self taught lip Pursers don't play with a wide open mouth, this is why other players and myself, can tell if a player is Lip Purseing, they may be a good player but there poor emboucher is producing this weak tone we hear:(
Are there any disadvantages to playing with such a deep,lip pursed embochure?
NO,
Bro suck that baby down the back of your throat if you can get it that far in,
Is the resonance chamber bigger while tongue blocking?
only if you are a poor Lip Purser, by the sounds of thing Bro you got no Problems:)
some people call Lip Pursing Fish lips giveing the impression of lips and cheeks sucked in,,,in this case it bad Technique,
get back to you's on the Blues with no feeling no nothing zip ---------- Cheers Bro's
Some good points N.O.D......I have no idea about overblows while TBing...I hope it is possible but have not heard any comments.....I have learned that playing an OB or OD is one thing. Got that early on...Using it musically is another story...for me anyway
Yes you can overblow by TBing (I didn't know it was a preconceived belief that you couldn't), I feel I get tighter control over the pitch by LPing an overblow, but that's probably more down to me (they're not something I typically do much of)...I heard Filisko TBs his overblows?
Last Edited by on Jul 21, 2010 7:12 AM
Good info Joe. I had no idea that TBing was used on blow bends....... The overdraws are finally coming for me and I am blown away that you can do that TBing. Can you do the 2-5 draw split and bend the 2 down to get the octave?....Tell me you cannot do a 7-10 split and overdraw both to get the octave?!
''if you Lip Purse and try to duplicate an all time classic Tongue Block tune this is what you get''
What makes you think that guy is trying to duplicate anything? My take he is just playing a song he likes the way he wants to.
And more importantly, this guy didnt post his video on the forum for comment. Who the hell gave you the right to take in the abstract and then get your kicks out of putting him down?
It's a pretty cheap and negative thing to do. Are you unable to make your point without putting down somebody who isnt even interested in the debate?
You, on the other hand, have put video on the the site and so I am going to state that, in my view, your playing shows no more musicality or feeling than you judge the guy to lack. You write plenty and should probably spend that time putting it into woodshed time.
Glass houses ain't a great place to be throwing stones.
Hi yogi tell you what, i will contact this Bro via YT email explain to him my reason for posting the clip it's not a Hate thing, great work Bro for sticking up for the Dude:)
Tell you what i like the bitch slap woodshed comment, im working on this song funny that hay:)
say check this out you want to make me eat my words when you post a response to this thread i will come strait back at you:)
it would only be fair now if commented on your fine playing:)
