Since it's a lazy Friday, I thought that those who have trouble staying grooved on a straight-ahead shuffle might feel a little less sorry for themselves once they'd seen just how easy they really have it. Wikipedia has a list entitled "List of musical works in unusual time signatures." No matter how large and ridiculous you imagine such a list might be--"Take 5," "All You Need is Love" (the verse is in 7/4), "Whipping Post" (11/4 time)--you will be shocked. Things get really messy:
My first band really love odd timing. It was my first real studio work, it was 7 years ago, I was not too eperienced, but I think, I sounded good for my level.
upd embedded added The song has time signature which changed every bar 5/8 | 6/8 | 5/8 | 6/8 | 6/8| 7/8 etc... It was my first real band, I was shocked at first rehearsals. ----------
Last Edited by on Jul 09, 2010 1:23 PM
what the heck is 3 2/3/4 Heck I can't even type it right. 3?/4 there thats it.(no its not) maybe its 3 2/3 / 4 . ARRRRRRGH I can't even type it! What does that mean? three and two thirds beats in a measure? ---------- The Art Teacher Formally Known As scstrickland
Last Edited by on Jul 09, 2010 1:16 PM
I've played all of Bartok's Mikrokosmos, and quite a lot of Prokofiev. The Stockhausen is just a joke though. When I was a teenager, my friends and I were all getting into Soft Machine and Gong and a whole lot of other Jazzy stuff and Jazz-rock fusion, but I pulled out sooner than any of them. I complained about the time-signatures being too complicated and pretentious and bombastic, and they got pissed off with me. ---------- Andrew, gentleman of leisure, noodler extraordinaire.
Last Edited by on Jul 09, 2010 1:40 PM
No, I got even more nervous in front of a tape recorder than I did in front of a live audience! I haven't even owned a keyboard for 25 years. One day If I win the Lotto, I'll buy a house and a grand piano and a load of sheet music. ---------- Andrew, gentleman of leisure, noodler extraordinaire.
Frank Zappa thought he was a great modern classical composer. His stuff is full of exotic time signatures. ---------- Andrew, gentleman of leisure, noodler extraordinaire.
@jiminMo, mad cat played blue Ronda on the generations album with Dave and his sons. One of the best harp pieces I own and a must have. ---------- -- BTMF --
The Blue Rondo's time isn't so strange. It's just 9/8 but they just changed the accents most of the time from counting 1&& 2&& 3&& to 1& 2& 3& 4&& and that changes the whole feeling about 9/8.
Irregular time signatures aren't really that different from regular time signatures. I'm sure everybody here has gotten into some crazy groove at some point that evolved in some weird signature.
Stickman writes: "what the heck is 3 2/3/4?"
It's not as complicated as you'd think. I think it would be counted like one-two-three-one-two-one-two-three, maybe somebody with a formal music background can confirm or refute that.
You can count the whipping post intro like this: "ONE two three four ONE two three four ONE two three four ONE two" Or like this "ONE two THREE four" Which leads me to think the intro is in common time. Then, the vocal part is common time. On the studio version, 2nd video below, makes a better argument on common time for whipping post, as Greg Allman acompanies the bassline with a "ONE two Three four" counting on the organ. You can continue that same common time count into the vocal portion. I can count all of W-Post in common time and it makes sense. Something like Pink Floyd's "Money" (7/4 time), I can't remotely count it like that. I would be interested to hear other folks weigh in on this... my gut says common time. I know I could very easily be wrong here... as Whipping Post was listed on the odd time list as 11/4.
---------- www.harrisonharmonicas.com
Last Edited by on Jul 09, 2010 9:06 PM
Yeah, in agreement with Elk, and with reference to the Stockhausen, 134/8 is not a big deal - you don't actually do any counting, you just play the notes in the bar at the right rate, and it works itself out. That is, if you are lucky enough to have notes to play. The bitch is if you are in an orchestra and your instrument is resting for that bar, then you have to count the damn notes and it's worse than playing! I've played pieces where you are resting for like 10 minutes and you have to count out every single frikkin bar. The conductor might point to you and glare when it's your turn to come in, but if you're asleep, that ain't gonna help much!
In the case of Bartok, although the time-signatures can be wacky, it's important to realise that almost all of it is highly rhythmic, since it's mostly based on Balkan dance music, so, as long as you can find the rhythm and get into the swing, that takes care of the time signatures. ---------- Andrew, gentleman of leisure, noodler extraordinaire.
Last Edited by on Jul 10, 2010 1:47 AM
I know one folk singer here, he play some sort of diatonic "hand harmonica". I was askej to play with him. One song he started to sing was in 23/16 and he played this time signature clearly!!! It actually was 11/8 with slight rubato in the ending of each bar. He actually don't understand what does he play, he just play by ear.
@Elk The song sounds to me like the intro is in 11/8 and the verse and some parts of the solos are in 12/8. This is probably the reason why you can count to four through the whole song because 12/8 is actually a common time that sub devided each beat into triplets so it goes 1&& 2&& 3&& 4&& for the verse and solos, and for the intro you just cut off the last eight note so you count 1&& 2&& 3&& 4&. I'm quite sure with this and I suggest you try to counting like this, wanna know if you agree.
Last Edited by on Jul 10, 2010 4:31 AM
It's difficult because the different time signatures serve different purposes - for example, (if I stick mainly with Stockhausen and his ilk), a lot of that music was part of the Conceptual Art movement, about which I'm pretty cynical - it's mainly art that looks good on paper, but which isn't really designed to be looked at or listened to. A Stockhausen score might even just be a yellow circle and a blue square on a piece of paper and the musicians interpret it any way they want! In my book conceptual art is literature, not art. Or perhaps a musician simply doesn't want the audience tapping its feet, the philistines!, so he just throws the beat off to prevent it, or he thinks that rhythm is old-fashioned and bourgeois, so he makes a piece arhythmic by playing with time signatures like 87/8, or maybe he tape-recorded a wind-chime for 87 notes and is reproducing them, or maybe he's interested in numerology and his time signatures are deemed by him to be mystical. There's all sorts of possibilities. 4/5 /4 just means that the bar lasts for 80% of the length of a crotchet. This may be achieved by playing one note but cutting it off short, or it may be achieved by playing 4 semiquavers at a rate of 5 to the crochet. Whatever.
Or maybe the composer hates musicians, lol!: A disgruntled actor once drove a herd of cows through an Alfred Hitchcock set because Hitchcock had likened actors to cattle, and Hitchcock's response was "I didn't say actors were cattle, I said they should be treated like cattle."
I can imagine a composer feeling the same way about musicians! ---------- Andrew, gentleman of leisure, noodler extraordinaire.
Last Edited by on Jul 10, 2010 5:25 AM
Time signatures are used to indicate how a piece of muisc can be notated.
The top note is how many beats per measure.
The bottom note is what note indicates a beat.
Examples: 4/4 - 4 beats a measure and a quarter note indicates one beat 6/8 - 6 beats a measure and an eighth note indicates one beat 3/1 - 3 beats a measure and a whole note indicates one beat 134/8 134 beats a measure and an eighth note indicates one beat
The only reason time signatures are used is to help the performer read the music. Most pieces are in a consitant "time", but when they are not the time sig would change to reflect the composed line. It would be unlikey that anyone would write 134/8, because this would be difficult to keep track of where you are. If you are playing with a group then how would a conductor indicate anything other than the beat? It would be subdivided in manageable chunks per phrasing.
Whipping Post is 11/8 in the intro and most of the rest is in 12/8.
Aside from that, I have a question - this is a lot for me to assimilate. If it weren't for the percussion, how does one distinguish the 2-2-3, 2-3-2 and 3-2-2 variances in the harmonica playing? I guess that's a dumb questions, but what I think I'm asking is if the harmonica playing makes the distinction all of the time?
Or does it add color to play 2-2-3 on the harp while the percussion is playing 3-2-2....
I think I'm going to have to listen to that a few dozen times to begin to understand it...
Arzajac, what you need to do is clap your hands on the first beat of each couplet or triplet. Then you'll hear the three different rhythms. You'll also need to clap your hands loudest on the first note of each bar, otherwise the three rhythms will just merge into one (if you look at them as cycles, you'll see they are all the same:- 223 (or 322, it's the same thing), can't be otherwise). Or pronounce it like an Indian would pronounce tabla playing: - 'TA' ta ta, TA ta, TA ta,'TA' ta ta, TA ta, TA ta, 'TA' ta, TA ta, TA ta ta,'TA' ta, TA ta, TA ta ta, 'TA' ta, TA ta ta, TA ta,'TA' ta, TA ta ta, TA ta,
---------- Andrew, gentleman of leisure, noodler extraordinaire.
Last Edited by on Jul 10, 2010 8:06 AM
"If there was no percussion, could you hear the variances in 7/8 with just the harp?"
Depends on the harp player's enunciation. Assuming an ideal harp player, the answer's yes.
It's not just the rhythm - the notes tend to follow a cycle too, and so they also help you to distinguish which rhythm it is. ---------- Andrew, gentleman of leisure, noodler extraordinaire.
Last Edited by on Jul 10, 2010 8:12 AM
No, if you're doing it right you don't actually count - like I said about Bartok, you discover what the rhythm is and play it by feel. ---------- Andrew, gentleman of leisure, noodler extraordinaire.
"what the heck is 3 2/3/4 Heck I can't even type it right. 3?/4 there thats it.(no its not) maybe its 3 2/3 / 4 . ARRRRRRGH I can't even type it! What does that mean? three and two thirds beats in a measure?"
Did this question ever get answered? I basically answered it when I said "4/5 /4 just means that the bar lasts for 80% of the length of a crotchet."
3 2/3 / 4 is basically going to be 11 quavers, usually in a 3332 pattern, very much like Sweet Bulgarity, or like a lot of those syncopated songs you get in places like West Side Story, although the composer can also use double-time instead of triple time if he thinks he's being really experimental - in other words, One two, One two, One two, Onetwo (faster). ---------- Andrew, gentleman of leisure, noodler extraordinaire.
Last Edited by on Jul 11, 2010 5:09 AM
