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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Another Contentious Topic?
Another Contentious Topic?
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tookatooka
1454 posts
Jun 19, 2010
6:45 AM
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As a leisure/semi-serious, for my own pleasure player, I think I've made more progress learning to play blues harp using a compromised tuned harp than I did when using an equal tuned harp.
Any views on this please?
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Gwythion
84 posts
Jun 19, 2010
6:59 AM
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I found that, too. I used to play tremolo harp, tongue blocking style with chords. When I first tried blues harp, it was on equal temperament harps and chords sounded bad. I didn't get into blues harp playing until I played compromised tuned harps.
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Kingley
1274 posts
Jun 19, 2010
7:02 AM
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Tooka - That makes a lot of sense simply because a compromised tuning makes the chords sound smoother. So that means that it'll sound more like the records you're listening to than an equal tuned harp would.
If you had a harp tuned to 7 Limit JI and were listening to classic harp stuff (Big Walter, Sonny Boy, etc) then it'd be even closer still. Simply because up until the late 70's or early 80's Hohner were still tuning Marine Bands to 7 Limit JI.
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Paul "Kingley" Routledge
My YouTube Page
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Tuckster
617 posts
Jun 19, 2010
7:59 AM
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I have 2 Bluesmasters and yes,chords never sound quite right for blues. They have good playability and sound fine for melodies.
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waltertore
682 posts
Jun 19, 2010
10:50 AM
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either one is fine for me. Walter
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barbequebob
954 posts
Jun 19, 2010
11:47 AM
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Hohner last stop tuning diatonics in 7LJI in 1985. The Golden Melody was always tuned to ET. From 1985-1991, except for the GM or solo tuned diatonics, Hohner diatonics were tuned to 19LJI, and since 1992 they've been tuned to a comprimise tuning, and there are 3 of them, one for the MS series, another for the MB/Sp20 and another for the Crossover.
With more players playing in positions past 3rd position and more use of overblows, there became more of a demand for ET tuned harps. Now these days, very few harps are tuned to JI at all.
The following harps are tuned to 7LJI as of now:
Hering Vintage Harp
Suzuki Fabulous (just tuned version}
The following are tuned to 19LJI as of now:
Bends Juke
Hering Master Blues
Hering Delta Blues
Seydel's comprimise tuning is very close to 19LJI and the difference is the way 5 & 9 draw are tuned. In 19LJI, those two are tuned 1.5 cents sharp, and on the Seydel, they're tuned 2 cents flat.
I've posted these tunings at different points in time on this forum. JI has been around centuries longer than ET.
The reason ET sound terrible for chords on diatonic harmonica is that harmonica reeds give off far more harmonic overtones, especially the odd numbered ones more than any other instrument outside of piano and becuse most of those overtones are odd numbered, they tend to sound harsh to the human ear.
With a comprimise or just tuning, certain notes of the scale are either sharpened or flatted to get a sweeter, smoother sounding chord. If you play a 1/2 valved harp like a Suzuki Valved Promaster, they're tuned to ET, but their chords sound somewhat smoother because an additional thing the valves do is dampen many of the upper harmonic overtones and smopths the sound out a bit, much like a chromatic, tho it does alter the sound of the instrument a bit.
All of my diatonics other than solo tuned, I have them all tuned to 7LJI, as I'm a traditional player and prefer the sound of the smooth chords and double stops and I started out when the vast majority of diatonics were tuned mainly to 7LJI.
If you need to hear the difference, go to http://www.patmissin.com and he has sound samples on a key of C diatonic to compare to.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by on Jun 19, 2010 12:04 PM
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hvyj
408 posts
Jun 20, 2010
6:31 AM
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Interesting observation. Personally, after i started playing ET about 3 years ago, my playing and my ear improved fairly dramatically.
I don't usually play a lot of chords and I regularly play in multiple positions (first through fifth). I found I sounded much better in tune with the band playing ET and I began to HEAR the notes better--For example, since I play no other instruments, after playing compromise tuned harps for all those years I didn't really know what a flat 7th was SUPPOSED to sound like at proper pitch since that's one of the notes tuned flat in compromise tuning. So my note selection for soloing and improvising got a whole lot better after i started playing ET and my ability to hear intervals and chord tones correctly improved--playing ET made my playing more musical because i started to hear what i was playing much better in relation to what the band was playing.
But, if one is limiting oneself to playing blues and only uses first through third positions, I can understand the appeal of compromise or just tuned harps. But, these days, I only play ET. Chords may sound more in tune on a non-ET harp, but I don't play chords a whole lot anyway and I think it's more important for me to sound in tune with the other musicians in the band than it is to sound in tune with myself. Personally, I think it's more difficult for me to sound in tune with the rest of the band with all the flat notes on a compromise tuned harp.
Last Edited by on Jun 20, 2010 7:17 AM
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AV8R
17 posts
Jun 20, 2010
8:59 AM
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Probably a dumb question but-if I tune my harp using 440 as calibrated on my tuner, would that be considered ET?
Thanks
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hvyj
410 posts
Jun 20, 2010
9:08 AM
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After thinking about it, i should add that there are certain things besides chords that don't sound good on an ET harp. If you tongue block and do tongue lifts to play chords, that doesn't work well on an ET harp. So, full time tongue blockers would not find ET harps optimum for that style of play.. Tongue flutters don't sound good played on an ET harp, either. So, playing style has a lot to do with what tuning will sound good.
Except for warbles/shakes I don't use a lot of harmonica specific techniques when I play. I often say I don't play my harmonica like it's a harmonica, so ET suits my style of play pretty well.
Btw, I think split interval double stops sound decent on an ET harp, especially if one moves the holes of the harp deeper into the mouth past the teeth as they are played which fattens tone. I mostly play single notes, but I will play split interval double stops in place of chords and i think it sounds okay. Some players claim split intervals don't sound good on an ET harp, but I don't think they sound all that bad.
Chords do beat when played on an ET harp, but I only play chords every now and then, and if I lighten breath pressure and open/soften my oral resonance chamber as I do, I can reduce the beating to more of a shimmer, so it's not as noticeable--but ET harps are certainly not optimum for playing chords.
Btw, my harps are tuned to 442 which seems to keep me at proper intonation when i perform.
Last Edited by on Jun 20, 2010 9:46 AM
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barbequebob
959 posts
Jun 20, 2010
12:01 PM
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On a tuner, regardless of what pitch standard is used, 0 cents is ET. If you tune harps to true A440, you'll actually be flat against a band playing in real A440 because of the amount of breath used in real playing and the harder you play, the flatter the pitch gets and if you play too hard all the time, you can be as low as A437 against a band playing in real A440, and that's roughly about 50-60 cents FLAT and that's impossible not to notice and that's why all harp companies NEVER tune to real A440, and more often A44-A443 so that when played hard,it won't fall belowA440. In other words, it's a BAD idea using real A440 as a pitch standard and A442-A443 is much more realistic and VERY FEW players on this plane including 99% of the pros in all genres on the planet can't play soft enough 24/7 and play A440 on a harp tuned to real A440. AVR, it isn't a dumb question at all.
@hvyj, as you've seen, you have to play with an extremely light touch on an ET tuned harp to keep the beating down. If it'd partially valved, it will cut down on the upper harmonic overtones, especially the odd numbered ones, which causes them to beat so hard and to check this out, get a chromatic and play a chord on it and you'll hear less of a beating sound even tho both are tuned ET. Put valves on a diatonic, the beating will lessen.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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