|
Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Just Tuned Chromatic
Just Tuned Chromatic
Page:
1
7LimitJI
149 posts
May 20, 2010
3:26 AM
|
I was never very happy with the sound of chords on my chromatics beating away like a little drum.
I use lots of chords and tongue slaps in the Rod Piazza fashion.
So, as I only play them in third position decided to try 7LimitJI tuning them.
So set the tuner for D 7Limit for the draw reeds and C 7Limit for the blow.
To my ear its far better like this, much smoother and rich with no metallic overtones like the Equal tuned ones.
Haven't heard of anyone else doing this.
This will limit the chrom for 3rd position only, but most blues guys only do this anyway.
Also discovered an easier way to tune the blow reeds without taking the plates off.
Take the mouthpiece off and this allows access to the reeds through the front of the harp.
On straight tuned reed plates(older 64's and the 12 hole chroms) you can tape up the upper or lower chambers off that you're not tuning.
I use a little rotary tool, like a dremel for this.
----------
Those Dangerous Gentlemens Myspace
Due to cutbacks,the light at the end of the tunnel has been switched off.
|
jim
53 posts
May 24, 2010
12:16 AM
|
Wanna try my TrueChromatic? It has all 24 chords from 12 holes (some are present in several octaves, giving a total of 74 chordal combinations!)
It allows playing in different keys using the same position (moving everything two holes up/down, and there's one position that's very similar to 2nd pos. on the diatonic (and if you half-valve it, it's identical using the draw bends)
I tune it to a compromise that make all chords sound great, without sacrificing single note intonation.
----------
www.truechromatic.com
|
7LimitJI
156 posts
May 24, 2010
5:10 AM
|
Thanks Jim, but no thanks.
I'm very much an old school player, struggling on with just 1st, 2nd and 3rd pos !
Old dog, new tricks. :o(
----------
Those Dangerous Gentlemens Myspace
Due to cutbacks,the light at the end of the tunnel has been switched off.
|
jim
54 posts
May 24, 2010
5:28 AM
|
well... that's exactly what I've said - it plays like 2nd pos on the diatonic.
----------
www.truechromatic.com
|
barbequebob
853 posts
May 24, 2010
9:58 AM
|
Rod doesn't retune any of his chromatics into Just Intonation at all. He's playing them exactly as they are out of the factory, Equal temperamnet.
Tho laid out like a diatonic harp is, if you bought either the Hohner Slide Harp or the Koch chromatic, those are already tuned to JI.
----------
Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
|
harpwrench
273 posts
May 24, 2010
10:21 AM
|
7LimitJI,
Are the difference tones (ghost tones) a D then, or a G? I did this once and it did not work out well because the difference tones reinforced the second position key instead of third. I was just beginning to mess with tuning and don't remember all the details, but I do recall liking it at first, then finding it to not sound good at all when amplified.
|
jim
57 posts
May 24, 2010
12:55 PM
|
My experience tells me that with notes DFAB it will indeed be a "G"...
----------
www.truechromatic.com
|
7LimitJI
158 posts
May 24, 2010
5:49 PM
|
I posted this on Harp-L and got this response.
I hope Winslow doesn't mind me posting this here.
"You can sweeten the temperament of a chromatic without going to the extreme of 7-limit just. As you note, this sweetens the chords and intervals, but severely limits the keys you can play in.
I like to sweeten the perfect fourths and fifth by tuning the upper note (G, G#, A Bb) in the fifth two cents sharp. However, this impacts those notes when used as a tonic note by pushing them slightly sharp, and eve more when they're the third in a major chord. 12TET puts these notes 14 cents sharp of an acoustically pure third, and now it's raised to 16 cents.
There's almost nothing you can do in tempering a harmonica that will not exact a cost - make one thing better and something else gets worse.
But sometimes the result is worth it, of you're willing to accept the cost.
Winslow
Lowering the thirds by 14 cents, however, is not a good idea for playing the instrument chromatically.
Winslow Yerxa"
This is a lot more complicated than I first thought.
I programmed my tuner for 7Limit JI for the "C" major diatonic harp. Then select the key I need and it is transposed automatically.
The notes not on the diatonic were left at 0 cents.
This means when I used it to tune my chromatic.
The blow notes in "C" C, E, G, were tuned at 0, -14, +2
The draw notes in "D" D, F, A, B were tuned 0, 0, +2, +6
So, he blow notes ARE 7LimitJI
The draw notes are NOT.
Apologies, my error.
What I am hearing on the blow is a perfect interval chord. Very nice.
On the draw a 0 cent 1st, 0 cent flattened 3rd, +2 cent 5th and a +6 cent 6th
I took a long time tuning these as close as possible to the tuner in the middle octave then tuned the rest by ear to that.
It does sound much smoother like this, but is probably due to being better tuned than the other chromatics I compared it to.
I will continue my quest to find a better tuning and try some more variations.
DFAB is Dminor6 Not G ??
----------
Those Dangerous Gentlemens Myspace
Due to cutbacks,the light at the end of the tunnel has been switched off.
Last Edited by on May 24, 2010 5:50 PM
|
htownfess
100 posts
May 24, 2010
6:42 PM
|
"DFAB is Dminor6 Not G ??"
That is correct, sir, and putting a minor chord into 7-limit JI means its minor third is going to be tuned well sharp rather than flat. Don't remember offhand what happens to the VI, but the minor third alone takes some getting used to. I put a Lee Oskar natural minor D (i.e. a G diatonic) in 7-limit earlier this year, which I hadn't tried for about a decade, and playing it is going to take some getting used to, intonating its minor thirds for one--and that's on Dm tunes, fuhgeddabout D major.
I think part of the appeal of traditional blues chromatic is precisely the minor-VI-over-major feel and the roughness of the ET chords in that mode, which tend to suggest a specific emotional tone. That roughness is part of the appeal of putting delay or echo or reverb on the blues chromatic, IMO--the emotional tone the effect tends to impart meshes well with the inherent ET chromatic feel. I'm not articulating this very well, but it seems a matter of accepting a limited emotional range, i.e., tone--tone defined as emotional attitude, as a textual tone is defined--and working with it, more so if one is playing a lot of LW-style four-hole blocks rather than George Smith-style octave blocks. Paul DeLay and Bill Barrett demonstrate that one doesn't have to accept those limitations if one really plays the chromatic chromatically, but most blues players aren't going there. Even then, I feel ET is better for making single notes work expressively, and so IMO an ET diatonic is better for me to play third position on, and I just accept the harshness of the chordal elements as a feel to either take advantage or minimize as I see fit.
Keep trying, though, I'm not saying it can't be done--
|
7LimitJI
159 posts
May 24, 2010
7:30 PM
|
At home now playing the chrom and checking it on the ET setting on the tuner.
It is tuned 7-Limit on the blow and almost ET on the draw.
It sounds great as it is.
I hadn't set the tuner for D minor, but D major, which is why I've ended up at almost ET on the draw.
Think the main difference I'm hearing is how out of tune my other chromatics are !! Even straight OOTB.
Rod Piazza's chroms sound very smooth and well tuned.
Bill Clarkes more like fess is saying above with the chordal roughness along with the bent lower note octave effect that he used a lot.
I prefer Piazza's approach and will be tuning the chroms as smoothly as possible.
----------
Those Dangerous Gentlemens Myspace
Due to cutbacks,the light at the end of the tunnel has been switched off.
|
htownfess
101 posts
May 24, 2010
8:44 PM
|
I'd much rather hear a blues chromatic that's got its octaves synchronized and is in good tune overall, since one can bend the octaves out of tune on purpose when desired, like Clarke does. Add delay/echo to octaves that are well in tune, and octave blocks become a sweet element to play against the roughness of LW four-hole blocks, and the available palette expands. Piazza makes good use of that.
I'm afraid nowadays I frown when I hear an out-of-tune blues chromatic on a recording or live, always think the tune would sound better if the instrument had been tuned first--
|
ElkRiverHarmonicas
434 posts
May 25, 2010
11:19 AM
|
DFAB, not DFAG, is the Dm6 chord. I think DFAB would be something like Dm4 or something right? Whatever it is, I just played those notes together on the melodica and it sounded really dischordy and ghostnotey.
I think what Jim was talking about was he was saying G was the ghost (difference) note you'd make if you played those four notes together.
|
7LimitJI
163 posts
May 25, 2010
11:35 AM
|
According all the internet sites I've looked at
DFAB is Dm6
This is the root chord for 3rd position on a C chrom.
It sounds nice on my chrom,now I've tuned it !!
----------
Those Dangerous Gentlemens Myspace
Due to cutbacks,the light at the end of the tunnel has been switched off.
|
tmf714
117 posts
May 25, 2010
11:45 AM
|
I own one of William Clarke's personal chromatic 270's.
He tuned and worked on his own harps for sure.
The one I own is an A harp,with an A plate on top and a B plate on the bottom-the standard bottom plate would be a Bb.
Also,the harp is retuned sharp on the upper register-slighty,which is great for blues,but single notes do suffer a bit with this setup.
Yellow windsavers round out this harp-a great collectors item,and I will keep it in it's original form as a tribute to the man.
|
htownfess
102 posts
May 25, 2010
6:47 PM
|
Even Pat Missin wrestles with this one, apparently, as can be seen at http://www.patmissin.com/tunings/tun4.html
Synopsis is that with 3rd position blues in mind, he tunes the blow side as JI triads
(CEG = 0 -14 +2), but rejects 7-limit JI on the draw side of a C chro because its difference tones reinforce G tonality, not D minor tonality. He goes for a 5-limit minor triad (DFA = 0 -2.5 +2) and uses either -14 or +6 for the B. I'd tend to go for the latter, i.e. 0 -2.5 +2 +6 for the minor sixth draw chord. But if you are tuning a chro somewhat sharper overall, say +20 instead of +14 as the draw root, then Missin's flatter value for B still comes out at +6 cents and might not play too flat. Your call. I don't know what this sounds like yet.
A natural minor diatonic's draw chord in 7-limit JI would be 0 +16 +2 +18 +6, as the minor thirds are sharped rather than flatted. Takes some getting used to with the thirds so sharp.
Last Edited by on May 25, 2010 6:48 PM
|
7LimitJI
164 posts
May 25, 2010
7:28 PM
|
@ Fess
0 -2.5 +2 +6 is almost what I got by accident
0, 0, +2, +6 this sound good.
I'll try taking the F down to -2.5.
----------
Those Dangerous Gentlemens Myspace
Due to cutbacks,the light at the end of the tunnel has been switched off.
|
Post a Message
|
