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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
nos tubes vs. production?
nos tubes vs. production?
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JDH
19 posts
May 09, 2010
8:38 AM
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I think the answer to that is sometimes yes, sometimes no, and sometimes they aren't extra dollars if you shop around. I have around thirty amps, Almost no current mfg. tubes, mainly because so far the cost difference in most cases has not been enough to make the difference. One exception being I recently paid more than I like for a couple of Mullard GZ34's, to me in my super reverbs and deluxe reverb, it's worth the extra dough. That's what I've had in those amps for over 40 years and nothing else seems to sound the same. I will never pay $100 for a 12ax7, as I've seen people do on ebay though! JD
I should correct this: I often buy used tubes that test as new or better. Not all NOS.
Last Edited by on May 09, 2010 9:25 AM
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Cisco
123 posts
May 09, 2010
9:41 AM
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I have to agree with JDH. Also what bedroom nuances you hear from an NOS tube will most likely be totally lost in a band.
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Harpaholic
77 posts
May 09, 2010
9:47 AM
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IMO, the nos jan Philips preamp tubes I use (5751,12AT7), and 5Y3's are worth a little extra cost. (Warmer, and smoother). Some nos tubes are still fairly priced.
As far as new production tubes there's a lot of great tubes out there. Tung Sol RI's being my favorite new production. If I'm not running TS, I'm running Sovtek, or JJ's.
Sure the old Mullard's, Tung Sol's, RCA black plates, GE 5 stars, NOS/JAN etc; may sound better, but the prices keep going up, and not worth the extra dough.
People that tell you nos is the only way to go are full of shit, and have too much money.
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barbequebob
803 posts
May 09, 2010
1:15 PM
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For certain tubes, like the 5AR4/GZ34 rectifier tubes or preamp tubes like the 12AY7, I still haven't seen a worthwhile modern replacement for them just yet. I have a Mullard in my real '59 Bassman and having tried for the hell of it some newer production versions, none of them come close.
I still haven't seen a new production 12AY7 sounding anywhere near as good as a 5-star GE 12AY7/6072A yet, and even with the newer and better varieties of 12AX7's (which the way they're being made are really 12AX7A's, which have more top end than a real 12AX7 does and I have an early 60's GE that can clearly prove the difference just in one area alone, and that's in the midrange response).
There is no doubt, the newer stuff is getting better because they have to be, and they're still not not lasting quite as long as the NOS stuff, but even that's getting better as well.
All of the Sovtek/Ruby 5881's all have one big problem that seperates them from the NOS Tung Sol's or Phillips/Sylvania's is when those get old, the bottom gets mushy very quickly wheras the NOS stuff didn't and often times I had to have a higher bass setting with the Sovtek/Ruby stuff.
10 years ago, NOS would've been what I've told you to do because much of the components of the newer stuff were often inferior and not made to military grade specs (heavy duty everything), which the NOS stuff were made to, but in recent years, there certainly has been a change for the better.
The main reason why US and Western European companies stopped making tubes by 1985 was because their biggest clients were NOT musical instrument companies, but the military, which had been using them for their computers and in some countries, for their telephone systems, and once those contracts were done and the military computers had been converted to solid state, the US military at the time already had a 300 year supply and it was no longer economically feasible for them to be made any longer.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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Rick Davis
378 posts
May 09, 2010
1:24 PM
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Agree with Harpaholic -- The NOS JAN Philips 5751 is an exceptional preamp/input tube. It is by far my favorite. You can get them for about $20 from Tube Depot in Memphis or online at their webiste.
But.... MUCH money is wasted on NOS tubes. I've seen some vendors make the most outrageous claims to support their astromonical prices. It is a lot of hooey.
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
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JDH
24 posts
May 09, 2010
1:25 PM
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It is surprising that the current mfgs haven't come up with a decent GZ34/5AR4, but I think I tried everything available, before I spent a couple hundred on 2 mullards.
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Cisco
125 posts
May 09, 2010
2:44 PM
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I really do like the NOS JAN Philips 5751 and the new Tung Sol 12AX7.
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LittleJoeSamson
279 posts
May 09, 2010
8:33 PM
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I like the NOS Sylvania pre-amp tubes the best. Somehow they hit that mellow "sweet spot" better than harsher GE or RCA valves.
Power tubes a different story.
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5F6H
115 posts
May 10, 2010
2:07 AM
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The Reflector/Sovtek GZ34 are pretty reliable, Mullards are comparatively delicate (especially in an RI bassman, which is hard on GZ34 due to standby switch wiring)...but that doesn't reflect on how they sound.
The EH 12AY7 is a pretty solid performer (both in terms of reliability & tone), I have been through dozens of NOS and only found a couple that compare, or sound better (RCA, '60 production GE with square getters - not to be confused with GE 'low noise' mil spec version that can be weak).
JJECC83 are great tubes. The ECC81 are a bit sterile compared to Jan Phillips 12AT7.
BBQ Bob wrote:"All of the Sovtek/Ruby 5881's all have one big problem that seperates them from the NOS Tung Sol's or Phillips/Sylvania's is when those get old, the bottom gets mushy very quickly wheras the NOS stuff didn't and often times I had to have a higher bass setting with the Sovtek/Ruby stuff." I disagree, if only because Sovtek & Ruby are the names of resellers/sales agencies, not manufacturers. NJ Tung Sol sound totally different to Phillips/Sylvania 6L6WGB - the WGB is more compressed in the high end, whilst the Tung Sol has a stronger, wiry mid sound. I love the 6L6WGB especially in 2x10 amps. The Reflector/Sovtek 5881 sounds nothing like either (but can still sound great in the right amp) and is LESS mushy than the 6L6WGB & I know guys that have gigged hard with these tubes for several years and they are still punchy.
In short, don't assume a NOS tube will sound better in your application, sometimes they will & sometimes they won't. A tube may be great tube in it's own right, but if it doesn't do what you need, in your amp, then it's no better than any other. You really have to try them & see. Current production tubes typically come with a 6 month warranty.
NOS tubes are not practical for most amp builders (high rejection rates, no follow up with the now defunct manufacturer), but they may offer them with an upcharge. Really though, experimenting with NOS tubes is something an owner can do at their leisure...you might stumble accross a real gem. Be sure to differentiate between NOS, from a reputable dealer, in original/military box...against some chancer on E-bay selling old 2nd hand tubes at opportunistic prices, that test "good" on some crappy drug store tester. Might still be worth trying some old used tubes but don't pay through the nose.
Preamp tubes are always self biasing & can be changed without a trip to the tech. Power tubes should really be checked with a bias meter, especially in a fixed bias amp, or old 50's/60's cathode biased amps that may be running higher voltages due to raised wall AC.
Single ended champ style amps will usually take whatever is thrown at them.
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