In another thread (GM vs Firebreath), Mike Fugazzi (hi Mike! :) says that the Manji would be his first choice for customising if he could, but implies his techniques won't work with it.
Can you clarify this, Mike? Are you referring to the fact the reeds are welded, so they can't be swung aside for full-length slot embossing?
From experience, that would not seem to be necessary. Joe Spiers, who admires Suzuki's reed and slot engineering above that of any other manufacturer, has done a test customisation of a Fabulous, and it is quite awesome. He brought it to SPAH '08, and all the top overblowers who tried it were extremely impressed.
It would be interesting to know if anyone else has tried seriously customising their Manjis or Fabulous, and with what results.
The ultra-precise reed alignment accuracy that Suzuki claims for the Manji (and resultant unsurpassed fine reed/slot tolerances) is a result of refinements in their reed welding technology. That has to be a good thing, but does the fact the reeds can't be swung aside for full length slot-embossing count against the Manji for high-level customising in the eyes of those who do it? Or are there other ways to get the same effect (eg. working on the reed base).
It's been out there in the market for over 6 months now, so it would be interesting to hear what results (good, bad, indifferent) it gives when customised.
Brendan Power WEBSITE: http://www.brendan-power.com YOUTUBE: http://www.youtube.com/BrendanPowerMusic
Last Edited by on Apr 29, 2010 4:24 AM
Hey Brendan! I am looking forward to meeting you at SPAH (assuming you're going to make it). Just to clarify, my comments were more directed to if I didn't ob/od I would use Manji's. In terms of customizing, I didn't do some of the extended work beyond arcing, gapping, and trying to limit the torsional vibrations.
I have a few Buddha harps and have turned some stock MB's into nearly Buddha harps. If the reeds would respond to the same techniques, the Manji would be perfect for me as I wouldn't have to mess with nails, cover plates, or combs for LESS than a Crossover.
But I stand by the comment that, as it currently stands, I would get Manji's over all other harps if I didn't ob. The Firebreaths are great harps too, but I prefer the shape of the Manji. The FBs feels thinner in my mouth than Hohners and Manji...like I have my mouth less open when playing. But that is strictly based on my personal preference. For the price difference compared to a Crossover, I think Manji is a better deal, especially if you adjust your reeds and can tune already.
The average guy isn't going to get the tolerances tighter anyways.
You know, if someone wants to send me some Manji's and a HarpGear Rockbottom, I will gladly put them to good use and give some feedback on customzing the Manji's, lol!!!!!!!! ----------
To answer Joe's query, Tachikawa-san of Suzuki confirms that the reed profiles for the Manji and Fabulous are identical.
Thanks for the feedback, Mike. It would be interesting to hear how a Manji responds to the more detailed customising work you mention. It sounds like it needs that to make the overblow performance better for you.
Has anyone else tried to optimise the Manji for overblowing with reed/slot work etc, or know of anyone doing it?
Brendan Power WEBSITE: http://www.brendan-power.com YOUTUBE: http://www.youtube.com/BrendanPowerMusic
CORRECTION: I did not say I had basic skills. With the context of the original post and my further explanation which included multiple references to doing more work on Hohners than the Manji, I thought it was pretty clear. Sounds like Brendan got what I was saying, and your quoting of me is totally out of context.
I did say I wanted to see if a "beginner" could work on a Manji and make it a great ob harp, so I limited my work on it.
I have studied for sometime under Buddha to work on harps. I did BASIC work on the Manji's I tried - gapping and arcing and waxing.
On my Marine Bands and Golden Melodies I have done custom-custom work, of which you cannot learn by digging through the information online. And a lot of what is online is just not correct especially as it pertains to ob set ups.
I took lessons from Buddha on several occasions...he teaches customizing for $1,000 (and I have the ok to share that).
Besides the time commitment to learning the craft, there is also a cost for learning this sort of information. $$$$$ Plus, I have purchased harps from him, a stock pile of composite combs, tools, and other auxilary pieces.
The stuff he does on just the reeds cannot be found anywhere on line. The time saved learning how to do the plates, combs, covers, etc. is worth the price alone. Those resources (non-reed work) exist for free online, but I think the way Buddha has shown me is better. I've been tweaking harps for five years.
You can learn to make a really nice harp using what is available through buying the books/vids on the subject. But they do not play like custom harps, especially if you ob. The techniques involved in getting to that next step are hard to learn on your own unless you have a lot of harps and time to noodle.
Over five years I made it nearly all the way there regarding reedwork (with Buddha's support), but that last 5-10% make all the difference! Buddha was the only way I was going to learn that - and I can honestly say that I had figured out a lot on my own and was getting damn good. He sorted through the mixed messages that exist online and pointed me in the direction that makes the most sense for my style.
Even if you had custom harps to reverse engineer, I doubt most would be able to replicate what goes on. In fact, I've seen people comment that so-and-so doesn't do "that" with their harps knowing the person has no idea what they were looking at.
When I say turned some to nearly Buddha harps I am being literal. Other than a few cosmetic differences, I bet only the most seasoned of pros could tell the difference. That sort of work is very time consuming and taxing...and I paid for it.
Most of my "lessons" with Buddha have been revolving around things other than reedwork now as I have decided to use Marine Bands and needed to learn all the non-reedwork from scratch. I honestly don't have time and energy to spend another couple of years learning to do that, so I went to Buddha with PayPal in hand. ;) You get the total package with him. He doesn't f#ck around.
@Brendan I got Manji in Bb. I get it already gapped, but not embossed as a gift from great Russian player Mikhail Vladimirov. I emboss (not full lenght) slots and it's lodest Bb harmonica I have. All overblows and overdraws are perfect, but it's almost impossible to play very quiet. ----------
This is an old thread but I'll take a punt that Brendan comes back and has a look at it.
Brendan, the word on the street is that you have the ear of Suzuki where new developments may be involved.
If so, how about suggesting a long slot JI tuned HarpMaster with the backs opened up. It's about time the Special 20 had some serious competition and it would be really, really nice if it was Suzuki.
The Manji may be OK but the HarpMaster price range, platic comb and no nonsense design would soon become a reliable workhorse for those of us on a budget.
Answering Brendon Yes I have customized two Manji's. First let me say I customize all my own harps. I don't play anything(out of the box) as people like to call it. There isn't a harmonica made by any company that is good enough. I will say I only play Marine Bands, but I do alot of work to get them to play at a satisfactory level! So I bought a couple Manji's hoping this might make things a little easier. You are right about the embossing. I use an 11/32 1/8" deepwell socket and I can get about 80% of the hole. Now I don't know why, but if you try to 80% of the hole on a Hohner without moving the reed. You will ruin the reed. That is why the best customizers move the reed! With the Manji you don't need to!! Which is good because you can't anyway. OK now this what you get: The best harp ever made for overblowing! this the first time I ever played an overblow and thought; WOW the tonality was perfect on the 4,5,6 and 7 overdraw. Then there is high end(hole 7 thru 10) Like butter! Sweet an easy. Every man's dream! OK now the not so good news. I tuned these harps to JI tuning like I do my Marine Bands hoping to campare apples to apples, but the low octave was wierd! I can play Adam's version of Sunshine of your love very well, but when I try to improvise it's feels like Im fighting with the harp! The three draw is the most expresive hole on the harp and it is the worst hole on a Manji! Now that is with the way I play harp too! So that is a big factor!! Or this may be what Mr. Spiers didn't want to say. I'm not tring to say it is a bad harp. Becuase it does somethings freaky good! It just doesn't have the springy easy to bend and slur capability(on holes 1-6)! That may have more to do with the reeds not being brass than the reed profile? I'm not sure though. I've spent alot of time with these harps and they just won't give it up!
Last Edited by on Jul 21, 2010 5:02 AM
I just did a quick and dirty volume test comparing stock Harpmaster covers to stock Manji covers. The Manji covers tested slightly louder. I'd estimate 15 percent.
I like the Harpmaster covers as is as they are virtually uncrushable. If opened up, they might be slightly louder but not enough to warrant the decrease in durability in my case. They're pretty loud as they are ...
>... customized Manji ...best harp ever made for overblowing...
I retuned a C Harpmaster to Jim's Circular tuning by weighting the reed tips with blu tack ... worked well ... all the draw notes end up being higher in pitch than all the blow notes so theoretically can overblow all holes ...
INTERESTINGLY, the overblows are much easier to hit once the reeds have been weighted. Almost unavoidable in some cases.
So if Suzuki wants to increase the overblowability without changing the reed length and width (and the retooling involved), using reeds that are more heavily tip weighted may be the answer.
Last Edited by on Jul 20, 2010 7:39 PM
Your Welcome Brendon! I'd like to add that I do like the comb and the cover plates. I had to modify the comb a little to get it flush with the plates, but wasn't a difficult task. I would like to hear what some of the professional customizers have to say about why the high end and the overblows are so good, but the draw bends aren't as smooth and expressive as the MB,GM and SP20. The tonality of hole one thru six is different also. I'm assuming that is the reed material, but don't want to guess! Would hole one thru six having brass reeds take care of the bendind issue? Would that alter the overblow ability? I'm just tring to build the perfect cyberharp! You never know if we come up with some good ideas maybe they will run some prototypes and come up with something nobody has thought of yet! If we don't get involed we can't help!
I've set up a few Manjis and haven't experienced the issues in the lower register that you've described. The problem you're having is one of the differences between a lower tier or DIY "custom" and one set up by a pro.
Last Edited by on Jul 22, 2010 5:48 AM
Yes joe you are right. I am a DIY customizer, but I'm comparing these to the Marine Bands I make! Nothing else!! You may be right though. maybe they are so different the reeds have to be set differently. I've certainly never heard of that, but I not a pro! I'm at a loss! I wasn't expecting that from you! Maybe I'll send them out to someone and have them evaluated
Wasn't expecting what.....? All I'm saying is that the Manji's I've done don't have the issues you describe. IMO it's not likely the reeds at fault.
Last Edited by on Jul 22, 2010 5:57 AM
@chromaticblues --- Before Brad Harrison became a manufacturer and was still customizing, he used to have pictures of reeds from different harp manufacturers that were under a microscope and it CLEARLY showed how different reeds are from manufacturer to manufacturer. Another thing to remember with Asian made harmonicas, 95% of them use short slot reeds and the only two Asian made harps using long slot reeds are both made by Suzuki, that being the Manji and the FAbulous and what works on short slot reeds may not work with long slot, etc., etc., etc..
I'm not a customizer, but I do tons of my own maintenance and some tuning and adjustments and I know for a fact things like gap setting that works for one manufacturer often doesn't work for another and it seems to me, based on the your statement, that you seem to think that there's a single blanket way that works for everything and trust me, it doesn't. Even with amps, based on things like the circuitry, what settings works with one amp often won't work with the other and what Joe Spiers AKA Harpwrech says makes PERFECT sense here.
Too often the average player tends to blame the instrument for almost damned near everything and often times won't take into consideration THE single biggest X-factor of them all that will ALWAYS come into play and that's THE HARMONICA PLAYER and his/her own personal playing technique, and too many players are often unwilling to admit to having bad playing technique and jsut take the easy way out and just blame the damned harmonica like clockwork.
Guys like Joe Spiers, Joe Filisko, James Gordon, Richard Sleigh, just to name a few full time PRO diatonic customizers are true craftsmen who I respect in a BIG way. Like any other true craftsmen, their work constantly evolves and from the very first Filisko I got to try out back around 1993-94, courtesy of Jerry Portnoy, to what all of these guys are pressently putting out is light years different and what they're putting out is clearly superior and the manufacturers, IMNSHO, are only just barely trying to catch up to that and they still have a long way to go before they;ll ever be as good as anything from any of the top customizers in the business, be it diatonic OR a chromatic. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
With your permission I want to recover this post. I have said before that I was very disapointed at the moment my Manji arrives, but after some days I am in love with this harmonica. After some proper gapping the harmonica changed severely, I had to change my technique as well, this one doesn't need so much power, you can get its sound easily. Here is my problem. I only want to get 4,5 and 6 overblows and after emboss the two thirds back parts of the reed slot I can hear them but I obtain a torsional sound. I want to buy more manjis in other keys but I have to be sure that I can solve this problem. Any advice is welcomed?
@mike "Really, I wanted to see if someone with limited customizing skills could tackle the Manji quickly. I did try waxing the rivets with little success."
Manji reeds are welded, no rivets. That's probably why you had little success.
I've had success working the torsional vibrations out of my suzukis. I don't have a UST so I had to do this with some pretty primitive tools. I'm not sure which part got the vibrations out, but I first ran around the base of reed with a screwdriver trying to make sure the whole thing was flat against the reed plate. Then I embossed near the rivet using the method Jim demonstrates in his videos. Quick and dirty, but I made it work. All of my suzukis can sustain overbends and bend them as well (not as well as my new custom, but decent).
chromaticblues wrote: "The three draw is the most expresive hole on the harp and it is the worst hole on a Manji! ... I'm not tring to say it is a bad harp. Becuase it does somethings freaky good!"
I couldn't agree more. I'm pretty competent when it comes to setting up harps, gapping, embossing, etc., but I just can't get the 3draw on my A Manji to where it doesn't seem stiff. To me, the Manji is a proper 3draw away from being a perfect workhorse harp. Until they fix that, I'm enjoying the hell out of the Seydel Session Steel I just got.
There is some sort of special jig required to replace reeds on a Manji. I have a custom Manji and it's one of my favorites, but I worry so much that I'll break a reed and have to throw it away that I hardly play it. The Suzuki website has NO TOOLS available. And no replacement reedplates. So after profiling, embossing and gapping to perfection, break a reed and is trash.
Somebody sell me the Suzuki Manji reed jig, please?
It isn't necessary to have the special rig for replacing the Suzuki reeds (although I'm sure it makes the job a little easier). Brendan Power has a video showing step by step how to replace the Suzuki reeds (without the use of a special jig). It's really not as difficult as you might think, I've only done it once but I was able to make the replacement succesfully without much trouble. Just go slow and follow Brendan's instructions. The only problems is that you'll need to have another manji to take the donor reed from. As far as I know, Suzuki doesn't supply individual reeds for reed replacements. If you play a lot of Manjis and have some blown out Manjis laying around, this won't be much of a problem. But if not you might have to pull reeds off a perfectly good Manji in order to transfer to the other harp. Although if you're fixing up a great custom harp, it may be worth it. When the time comes you may just want to send your Manji to one of the Suzuki techs. I believe Joe Spiers became an official Suzuki tech awhile back, and he has one of the special jigs for reed replacement. But if I remember correctly, at the time he didn't have a supply of Manji reeds to use for replacements. But he may have built up a stock of Manji reeds by now.
I enjoyed re-reading the new and older posts on this thread, some great ideas there.
@jimjam, you're obviously very competent with tools, so give that replacement process a try, as seen in the video. Yes, for the moment you'll have to cannibalize another Manji or take reeds from new replacement reedplates (now available!), but it will mean your worries about playing the harp live should be over.
Yes, a good tool that will alloy you to emboss the full slot length is the UST, or similar. It means there is no disadvantage that the reed cannot be swung sideways. And the positive side for embossing a Manji is that the accuracy of reed positioning in the slots is unsurpassed, due to Suzuki's unique welding process.
I've done two extra YouTube videos on replacing Suzuki welded reeds (for chromatic harmonicas, but they apply to diatonics too). They address issues if things don't go perfectly from the start. With a bit of practice you should be able to replace a welded reed in under 5 minutes.
"All the torsional vibration talk is bullshit. Provided you have a good comb, your hands, tools, and time - any harmonica can become very good."
Yes...but for someone coming at it will limited know-how and resources, there are other harp models that will be easier to "fix" regarding TV. That isn't to say the Manji can't be. I have to chuckle at all the Manji talk since Jason's announcement. I have a feeling, and it isn't isolated to this particular item that there will continue to be an influx of "How do I...to a Manji so it is more like..." threads while hero worship leads several to buy buy buy rather than think think think.
I am totally ok with that and guilty of such, but since there are a number of threads where people here claim to be broke and penny pinchers, I'd suggest you make sure you know what you are getting into.
One of the easiest ways to deal with squealing is by FULL slot embossing. This can be done on Manji harmonicas, even with welded reed pads. There are other ways to attack this to if one is too lazy or not mechanically inclined enough to full slot emboss. IMO, though, you can't really maximize a harp for overbends without embossing by the rivet. Well, you can, but it usually involves adding a foreign substance to the harp.
I stand by my original posts from long ago that this isn't the easiest harp for a modest tweaker to begin work on or try to make an overbend harmonica out of. Can it be done? Yes! But much like other non-brass or only partial-brass harps, it isn't a good template for a beginner or someone used to just doing some light embossing and gapping.
Obviously people like Jim, Harpwrench, Zhin, and others can do a lot with the Manji - at least when the goal is making it professionally customized harp - but out of the Suzuki harps even, it may not be the best for you IF you don't already really like it out of the box.
I look at it like this...I can make an OOTB better, but if I can find one that is already very close to good enough for ME and MY style, then why not start with that? If you are going to rant and rave about how the Manji is a great harp but should be more like XXX, then it really isn't all that great.
The same is true of any model, it just happens that this is a Manji thread. I've played a number of Manji from bone stock to set up for Howard Levy. They are really nice harps. They are really really nice if you don't need a harp to overbend or don't want to do a ton of tweaking. It is a great product, but not a magic bullet, nor something I would want to use or suggest for a gigging set of overbend harps.
Each time I play a Manji I like it more, really I want this to be my harmonica and setup a set of them. I'll try to emboss all the slot, I only did the last two thirds.
Hi, if anyone is interested I wanted to share a discovery I recently made regarding the draw bend issues I and others in this old thread have had.
I haven't done a full investigation of the shape of the reeds on ootb manji vs crossover, but I believe the manji reeds are more straight than the crossover ootb. I say this because when I put arcs in the blow and draw reeds 1-6 the bends finally felt virtually identical to the crossover in terms of ease and springiness (not to mention overblow performance is significantly improved as well). I think the basic science behind it is that the arc helps to reduce precious air leakage.
I was so delighted to solve this mystery that I wanted share it with the community :-) If anyone would like, I'd be glad to provide pictures of what the reeds look like on my A manji.
Last Edited by Shawn Irwin on Mar 06, 2014 12:06 PM
I'm liking the Manji a lot these days. Hohner will be raising prices in the next few weeks and I got a peek at their new prices. Suzuki harps have always been less expensive in Canada and if Suzuki prices stay where they are, a Stock Manji will cost about the same as a Marine Band 1896 (not even Deluxe or Crossover).
I much prefer to start with a Manji - I really like the reeds and the reed plates and covers are much nicer than an 1896. I have 8 harps with Manji plates on my workbench at the moment for service and repair and one custom overblow Manji in the works. All are fantastic harps.
I think that all harps/brands/models are pretty much the same in how they can be improved by making them airtight, doing reed work and getting the tuning right. Except for budget harps - those are useless!
Shawn: I would suggest you focus on what the shape/curve of the reed is when it is passing through the slot instead of looking at it at rest.
The quality of the video is pretty bad - in "real life" you could see a slit of light all the way to the base of the reed until the reed becomes level with the slot. Then the light disappears all at once.
Often, stock harps reeds are such that you will see light at the base of the reed when the first half of the reed passes through the slot. It's more efficient to eliminate this.
If you have adjusted the shape of some reeds and are happy with the result, take a look at them from this angle; I'll bet the result comes close to this:
A price increase for the 1896, oh well........ So say goodbye to Marine Bands for about forty bucks Canadian with tax, damn.
On the bright side, I am working saturday and sunday for doubletime pay, and I'll be sure to stock up on a few marine band harmonicas before the price increases come into effect.
@ Shawn, yes I'd like to see those pics.I just ordered a Manji today and I know the only Manji that I played a few years ago was a tough go on the lower octave.stiff as can be on hole three.thanks
Andrew, thanks so much for that advice! I've never thought of it that way before. However, when I looked at my reeds from that angle, I could only see light through the slot toward the tip of the reeds. Obviously this is because I arced the reeds so that they very slightly dip into the reed slot and protrude back out at the tip. This has been very positively effective for me. It seems to me that this contributes to less air loss. I've definitely noticed an improvement in reed responsiveness and better choking points for overblows. Do you think that I may be missing out on a better way to set it up? I'm always looking to discover new ways to make my harps play better! Thanks Andrew!
Sherwin, yes I for sure will! I'll try and whip something up tomorrow. I arc my all my reeds the same way for the most part that I'm aware of. Admittedly I've never paid much attention to the consistency amongst the different reeds. I always just go by feel with each one.
Last Edited by Shawn Irwin on Mar 06, 2014 7:05 PM
Hey for some reason my phone won't let me place a picture in the text box. I guess I'll have to wait until I'm able to get access to a computer... sorry about that! I could always email it to any of you guys in the meantime.
