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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
What to do when the band is in 220 or minor keys
What to do when the band is in 220 or minor keys
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Dduck
14 posts
Apr 27, 2010
11:47 AM
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Hi y'all!
I'm a slut. Harp slut that is, because I will sit in with anyone, anywhere, anytime, for free. Heck, I even buy THEM the beers! Sometimes I get in with these bands that are playing in 220 tuning. In other words, a half step down. I think it sounds really odd to play a F# instead of a G for a song in D (which is really in Db). What do you guys do in this situation? Also, what about when the band is playing in a minor key? I've faked it and played as if it was a major, but I don't think it sounded as it should have. Should I invest in some minor harps? Or is this where the third position playing is helpful?
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HarpNinja
407 posts
Apr 27, 2010
12:18 PM
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Learn 3rd. If you like G, a Low F# might work for you, but I'd do the song in 3rd if it is minor or if the chords have a b7th.
If it is major, I'd play 12th, which is just 3rd position on a different harp.
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hvyj
305 posts
Apr 27, 2010
1:07 PM
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If the band is in a minor key, i need to know what kind of minor it is. If it's a dorian minor (flat 3rd, flat 7th, major 6th) I'll play third position. If it's a natural minor (flat third, flat 7th, flat 6th) I'll, play fifth position.
If the band is tuned a half step flat, first thing i do is make sure they are actually an accurate half step flat. If so, I'll just use a harp a half step flatter than i would ordinarily use for that key in whatever position I'm playing in. If they've arbitrarily tuned down but not accurately to a half step down and then just tuned to one another, I'll lay out since it's not possible to play harmonica in key in a situation like that
Last Edited by on Apr 27, 2010 1:12 PM
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barbequebob
759 posts
Apr 27, 2010
1:11 PM
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The band being tuned 1/2 step flat on a tuner is a standard pitch of A415, which used to be known as Baroque tuning.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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jawbone
309 posts
Apr 27, 2010
3:57 PM
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Well, if it ain't Baroque - don't fix it!!
C'mon - somebody had to do it!!!
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If it ain't got harp - it ain't really blues!!!!
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Dduck
15 posts
Apr 28, 2010
5:55 AM
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Thanks alot fellas! I guess I really need to get more 3rd position playing going. I'm self taught and have no former musical theory behind me. The closest I've been to baroque is my barbecue pit in the backyard! I'm pretty sure alot of you guys have the same training as me, on the steet. Though I did attend a jam camp down in Clarksdale (with our honorable host, Adam Gussow along with some other fantastic harp masters). Other than that it was pretty much all by ear. So playing 3rd is not really comfortable for me yet. You know what I mean? I'm playing at my house and its sounding OK. At least my dogs stopped howling and hiding under the bed! But as far as using it in a gig...not quite confident enough. What tunes would you suggest that are good 3rd position 'beginner to intermediate' songs?
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jawbone
311 posts
Apr 28, 2010
8:33 AM
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You can play the melody of "Unchain my Heart" but your best bet would be to get some jam tracks in a minor key and just fiddle around with it 'til you're comfortable.
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If it ain't got harp - it ain't really blues!!!!
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Jim Rumbaugh
199 posts
Apr 28, 2010
10:08 AM
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My recomendations to learn 3rd position.
start on 4 draw and work your way up.
avoid 7 draw.
play "house of the rising sun"
play "Joshua fit the battle of jerico"
Here's a link to an A minor tune from our club's web site. Grab a G harp.
start on 4 draw and work your way up and jam.
http://hhcwv.com/mp3/bluesismybusinessjam.mp3
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hvyj
313 posts
Apr 28, 2010
10:16 AM
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Like you, i am self taught and have no formal music training. I have, however, picked up a basic working knowledge of music theory from other musicians I've played with over the years.
IMHO, the "trick" to handling minor keys and playing in multiple positions is to learn to play pentatonic scales. Practicing scales may not be fun, but it opens so many doors and any musician who can play well has done it. Well worth the effort.
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barbequebob
761 posts
Apr 28, 2010
10:20 AM
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Here's a freebie website for music theory you can learn at your own pace: http://www.musictheory.net. Learning theory is something you'll never regret.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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vicar88
24 posts
Apr 29, 2010
1:58 AM
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I'm still trying to get to grips with minor keys. I can play the blues scale in 3rd position in 2 octaves from 1 draw to 8 blow, but as far as I can work out, that's the same note pattern as the blues scale in cross harp, just a different key. Surely it's still major?
Just want a few rules before I start jamming!
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hvyj
316 posts
Apr 29, 2010
4:34 AM
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@vicar88: The blues scale IS almost the same as the minor pentatonic scale. Playing major key blues you are playing a minor scale over major chords (sort of). One can play minor over major chords and it sounds fine, but trying to play major over minor chords will sound AWFUL--and i mean REALLY BAD.
Third position gives you a DORIAN minor: Flat 3rd, flat 7th but major 6th (draw 7). That's fine for tunes in dorian minor.
NATURAL minor tunes have a flat 3rd, flat 7th and a flat 6th. If you are in a natural minor and you hit a major 6th, it sounds REALLY BAD.
Now, the 6th isn't in the blues scale anyway, so playing natural minor, you can play third position and be careful to completely avoid draw 7, and either carefully avoid draw 3 or bend draw 3 an EXACT half step EVERY TIME you play it.
Also if you are playing ANY kind of minor in third, DON'T bend draw 4. You can bend draw 2, but if you do, it MUST be bent precisely a full step or it will sound REALLY BAD. Alternatively, you can play fifth position where you have the flat 3rd, flat 7th and flat 6th without having to bend at all.
To play, for example, E natural minor blues in fifth position, use a C harp, play blow 2 for root, don't bend anything but draw 3 and try to avoid draw 5 and draw 9. There's more to it than that, but this oversimplified formula will work.
You can also play fourth position for natural minor, and get the flat 3rd, flat 7th and flat 6th without having to bend, but it's hard to get blues phrasing in fourth. Very useful for playing natural minor jazz material, though
There are 2 differences between the blues scale and the minor pentatonic scale. The blues scale has an additional note (the flat 5th) which works just fine playing in a minor key. There's also a difference in intonation or how you play the bends. The flat third in the blues scale often played as a "blue third" which is a quarter tone flat. When playing minor, this note MUST be played a full half step flat, accurately, every time or it will sound REALLY BAD. If you are playing natural minor, the same is true for the flat sixth (which isn't in the blues scale, but must be played an accurate half step flat every time to sound right).
General rule for bending in minor keys: ALL blue note bends must be played EXACTLY and PRECISELY on pitch every time, except the 5th note of the scale which can be played around with and bent the same way as you would playing blues in a major key. Also, DO NOT bend notes at random as it can take you out of minor tonality and will sound REALLY BAD (for example, bending the 4 draw in third position, or bending the 2 draw a half step in third position). You have to play a little more carefully and accurately when playing in a minor key which is not necessarily difficult. But, you've got to pay attention. In general, minor key phrases tend to resolve downward, so playing minor has a little different feel than playing major.
It solves a lot of potential problems playing minor if you use a position that gives you the flat (minor) notes you need without having to bend to get them. Makes things much simpler.
Btw, the blues scale/minor pentatonic scale in third position ends on DRAW 8, not blow 8, In third position blow 8 is a major 2nd (or major 9th) and is not in the blues scale or minor pentatonic scale. Nothing wrong with using that note sometimes, but it's not in the blues scale you are talking about.
Last Edited by on Apr 29, 2010 8:57 AM
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conjob
52 posts
Apr 29, 2010
5:33 AM
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any tips on how to approach the changes? do i stay in the one key or change position with the chords?
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harpwrench
245 posts
Apr 29, 2010
6:02 AM
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There's nothing strange at all about playing crossharp in your situation. Kim Wilson plays in Eb a lot, just grab an Ab.....What's weird about it? RJ Mischo blows some friggin' awesome harp on a low F# then switches to the high F# on my favorite track on his latest CD. I could go on and on, like I said there's nothing strange about it.
Last Edited by on Apr 29, 2010 6:05 AM
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hvyj
317 posts
Apr 29, 2010
7:03 AM
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@conjob: If it's a minor blues, you can pretty much play the blues scale of the key you are in against all the chord changes just like you would a major blues. Just know whether you need a flat 6th or not--which is not in the blues scale, but will sound AWFUL if you are in natural minor and hit a major 6th even as a passing tone.
In natural minor, you will want to play the flat 6th on the IV chord (which is the flat 3rd of that chord) which is something one generally doesn't do playing major key blues. But you don't have to go crazy making sure you always play that note on the IV chord so long as you NEVER play it major. Sprinkle in chord tones the same way you would playing major key blues. BUT DON'T bend randomly and be sure to play the flat 3rds, flat 7ths and, for natural minor, flat 6ths ACCURATELY ON PITCH. If you feel like it, you can bend and slur the flat 5th at points where it may sound good, but otherwise be very disciplined about what you bend, and when you do bend, bend accurately to pitch.
A minor tune will sometimes tend to "bounce" back and forth between a couple of chords along with the rhythm groove. So use your ear and don't lock in to anticipating the usual 12 bar blues structure. Go with the feel and work off the root, flat 3rd and (for natural minor) flat 6th. The flat 7th is cool. too but must be played accurately on pitch. DON'T force feed standard blues licks over minor changes. It's a DIFFERENT FEEL and the melody moves differently. Phrases often move back and forth and tend to resolve downward. Bends are NOT used freely for expression as they are in major blues. Single note lines that move along with the groove make the emotional statement through note SELECTION, not note bending. So you tend to keep moving rather than holding and bending notes when you are playing minor blues. This is also true playing non-blues minors.
Non-blues minors are all different, so it's harder to generalize. Playing minor involves a different feel. Very cool, very dark. It's a somewhat more sophisticated sound. Fun to do if you know how, but not a lot of diatonic players handle minors consistently well. Just knowing how to play third position is NOT a one size fits all formula for playing minor key material. A lot of musicians commonly bitch about harp players who blow major 3rds and/or major 6ths over minor tunes--it's an all too common faux pas that contributes to giving harp players in general a bad rep.
Last Edited by on Apr 29, 2010 8:10 AM
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