Wow. This amp smokes! It is totally capable of being a medium to large amp by just turning it up. I did not like the two 12ax7 set up, so I put a 5751 in V1 and a 12at7 in V2. I think that is what Jason Ricci uses, but I am not sure if I have them in the right order.
Anyways, the amp has huge bottom end and lots of punch. It is voiced very dark, but the tone controls help with that. It is super loud on 4-5, and I didn't even need my Kinder AFB+ (not true of the stock set up).
I feel that the clips of RJ playing it on the HarpGear site are pretty accurate to what I could dial in. The Ricci ones sound as though he's going through this pedal board.
The tone controls are very very useful. I am gigging with the amp in a large room this weekend. I'll discuss the amp more formally then.
What was interesting, to me, was that the amp sounded clean with single notes, but absolutely started to rip with any sort of chording or tongue blocking. It just had mad punch and tearage then! Even at low volumes! Very versatile...and gobs of bottom end.
It looks like you can run the amp at 8ohm or at 4ohm with an extension cab. I know what I'll be asking for for Christmas!
I didn't even crank the amp as my son (1) and nephew (5) were complaining from upstairs with the amp on 4. Lol. It was so cute... ----------
Coincidentally I got an email this morning from a guy that I just sold a nos element to. He claims his HG50 410 is not capable of going past three without squealing, even with the treble backed down. According to him, he spoke to Brian who said that was normal, and he could possibly get more volume on stage, but he hasn't been able to get past 3. (I have the email if anyone doubts it's existance) He's not happy about it, because there's times when he needs more volume. The 12/10 set up may be more harp friendly, because speakers can have a big affect on feedback. I noticed Chinaski uses his AFB with his HG50. I'm not trying to put down Harpgear amps, I've owned two DT's, and still have one. I found trying to use any speakers other than stock in the DT, increase feedback at lower volume. Swapping out the 4-10's to a 12/10 set up would be a BS solution for an expensive "harp amp". I know the Sonny Jr's will blast out the volume before feedback. Apparently there's mods used in the SJ's that's not used in the HG's?
Last Edited by on Apr 06, 2010 10:55 AM
From my experience with two DT's, you can run Weber Ceramics and a 5751 and still get almost all of the volume out of the amp. Using a 8F125 and Sig ceramic gave me an amp that was louder, fuller, and not anymore feedback prone. The 5751 kept the amp from being too clean. The AlNiCo, IMO, distorted too much with the amp cranked to 7ish. The 12ay7 wasn't tonally superior and wasn't letting me get louder before feedback. Anything past 8 on that amp turns to mush anyways. It has amazing tone. Amazing. Perfect for my style.
The 1210 probably isn't more feedback friendly. It is very dark. With the stock set up, I could get to 3 and then it started to feedback. 3 was louder than the DT on 7.
Tubing down the preamp gave me more useable volume, but the sound wasn't as "hot" - it is darker again. The Kinder helped a bit, but again, it wasn't super high on the dial before feedback (4-5 which was plenty loud).
But like I said, 3-4 is awfully loud on this amp stock. One thing many harp players like is a really dark tone from the amp. In my experience, this can be loud but not feel loud. So a dark amp at the verge of feedback doesn't sound as loud as an amp with more cut at the same volume. I think this is what makes the DT so awesome. It has a lot of cut.
The HG50 is way louder than the DT. I am not a real fan of tubing down but I do think that all 12ax7 tubes it too much a lot of times. I almost always use a 5751. I only used the 12at7 because Jason Ricci evidently does and I figured it was worth at least trying.
I was in an awful room for feedback and found that for my needs tubing way down from a gain of 100 and 100 to that of 70 and 60 gave me more benefits than cons. Not what I'd normally try (maybe a 5751 and 12ax7).
My suspicions are that the 12ax7wc was used because of its rep for being "dark". The Rex is also very dark. The AlNiCo is probably fairly dark as well. I was cranking the treble way up. Oh yeah, the power tubes were Sovtek 5881wxt, which are also sorta dark.
There aren't many good sounding tubes that are new production and less than 12ax7. Maybe a new 5751 wasn't a better deal than the 12ax7's he went with?
If you judge volume based on the number on the amp, you will be disappointed all the time. But, if you go for actual sound vs the rest of the band and ignore that, you'd probably find the amp to be very loud in general.
I think Sonny tubes down his amps...he doesn't use 12ax7 tubes for all the preamp tubes, does he? The 1210 certainly has huge bottom end. I am pretty confident I could gig with it and not use the AFB at all.
I will try and a/b with a DT tonight, but no promises. My DT isn't stock and is louder than stock. Will report back as I can. ----------
"If you judge volume based on the number on the amp, you will be disappointed all the time. But, if you go for actual sound vs the rest of the band and ignore that, you'd probably find the amp to be very loud in general."
Sonny does not use 12AX tubes for all the preamp tubes-he suggests you try AY's and AT's, to suit your personal taste. Most of the feeback resistance comes from the tone cicuit. Sonny insists on using only military grade NOS paper in oil caps, the only amp builder I know who uses these caps specifcally. Also,being able to bridge out Normal input 1 to Bright input 2 gives you a master voulme-even more feedback control. I can go on about Sonny's amps-he's a good friend,a great amp builder,and a damn fine blues harp player.
Last Edited by on Apr 06, 2010 11:41 AM
I bet this amp would read pretty high on a SPI meter. But like I said, it is a dark amp. If you try and crank the volume and then add highs and mids, it will feedback but not sound "loud" when tubed down.
I didn't leave the 12ax7 tubes in very long as it was feedback prone and I wanted to set it up with no pedals to begin with.
You have to put it on 3-4 and then add the eq. Adding some of the mids and treble in make the amp sound way louder even without the volume knob. But again, that is tubed down and not stock.
In other news...my delay sounded better with the DT. It is much more apparent with the 1210 and the repeats are much clearer. I have to play with the settings, but this didn't surprise me. My Micro Pog and Boss AW3 sounded amazing!
I think before sticking with the AFB, I'd try a BBE Opto Stomp for a bit of feedback suppression. I really like Jason's sound with that. But that is if I didn't really need to fight feedback hard.
FWIW, I use an Ultimate 57 and my two favorite tones are Carlos del Junco on Just Your Fool (entire album) and JR's on Afro Blue (very punchy and clear whereas he tends to sound softer in the mix on the other tunes).
I bet an RE10 would kill with this amp! ----------
I owned a Cruncher, and ran all 12Ax7's, and was still able get as much volume as I needed before feedback without micing it. If Gary can do it, anyone can. SJ amps have lower voltages in the preamp to reduce gain. No offense, or disrespect, but Gary doesn't build amps. He's a pioneer, a visionary that knows great tone, and he's not happy until he gets it. We can argue back and forth, but the different types of tone/coupling caps cannot be detected by the human ear. Filter caps is a different story. That statement came from a very reputable harp amp builder/designer. The tighter tolerences of a cap is more important than the type/brand. The PIO caps typically have very tight tolerences. The guy I'm referring to is not able to get the volume he needs without micing it. He's running lower gain tubes, and getting a little more volume, but sacrificing tone. I'm not taking sides, it is what it is! I run my DT with a 12AX7, I prefer the tone, and it's punchier. Feedback is not an issue. A good majority of the DT owners prefer the stock Sig 8's. I not a fan of too much distortion, but I don't get too much distortion with the mics I use. I get a fat, punchy tone. The DT's tone control will clean up the tone perfectly, IMO I sold my first DT with a RI P8R, and a Mod 8. Myself and the buyer were very happy with it. Real similar in tone to the stock speakers, just slightly more headroom.
Last Edited by on Apr 07, 2010 7:14 AM
Sonny's amps uses 3 preamp tubes: 12AX7 for the input, 12AU7 for the tone controls, and a 12AU7 for the phase inverter. The first tube can be swapped out for a 5751 which is what I do for my SuperSonny 410 so I get more control over the sound. Sonny likes using the 12AX7 or 5751 in the first position so that you can drive the signal hard for some preamp distortion and then drops the gain to 19% in the next two stages to control feedback issues. This allows you to get a good crunchy tone before you even start driving the power tubes hard.
Harpaholic - Tell your friend to to start dropping the gain on those preamp tubes and it will improve the feedback immensely. In stock form Brian's HG50 410 and 1210 are setup pretty hot with 100% gain 12AX7's and can quickly start feedback issues. When I sold my HG50 1210 to HarpNinja I recommended that he swap out the preamp tubes for lower gain tubes to make the amp a lot more controllable - which he has and is enjoying the immense benefits.
Harpaholic - looks like we both posted about the same time.
Last Edited by on Apr 06, 2010 1:27 PM
What kind of mike and other gear is he using? That seems odd that he can't get enough stage volume. Don't lower voltages make the tubes less gainy (similar to tubing down)?
Is he really getting more volume or is he getting a bigger sweep on the volume knob? More than once I've seen guys with miked Bassmans in medium clubs that are really tubed down. Tubing down takes away volume and frequencies that cut in a lot of amps.
I am not sure what his settings are here, but I think this is with a 5751 and 12at7 like in his original clip. The amp is at the point of feedback, and I'd imagine at least at three.
The room your in has a huge effect too. I always play with the exact same rig in the exact same spot at my house when testing an amp. Almost always, it feedsback earlier. When I get to shows, the amp has less feedback and sounds way louder.
Harpaholic - sounds like he may need a volume control on the mic. Maybe he's not getting a good cupping around the mic and is then prone to more feedback issues. Just some thoughts.
Just played the dt and 1210 side by side...really quick! The 1210 with a 5751 and 12at7 on 3 was the same as the dt on 7 with a 12ay7. The 1210 had way more bass, but with that rolled down they could be set near identical. I could get the 1210 past 5 before feedback and if I was careful to about 7. ----------
Ok, more specifics from last night with the DT and this morning with the 1210...remember I have ceramics in the DT...
The 1210 with a 5751 in v1 and 12at7 in v2 with a volume of 3, treble of 4, mids of 3, and bass of 2 sounds very much like the DT on 7 with a 12ay7, JJ6v6 tubes, and tone on 3.
I was using the amps side by side with an Ultimate 57 plugged straight in with a transformer.
The biggest sonic difference was the quality of the 6v6 vs 6l6...the 6v6 had more "compression" on the single notes and was a little sweeter sounding. EQ, chording, volume, and feel was very similar. Very similar.
This morning I played with the identical 1210 settings and then turned up to 4, and then up to nearly 5. Feedback wasn't a problem in a feedback prone room, there was a huge change in volume. As the amp gets louder the bass gets more and more and there is more and more punch in the bottom end. Above 4 is probably too loud with my band if I run the bass past 3 or 4.
The amp sounded best just past 4 with the treb on 4, mids on 3, and bass on 6. Wow!
If I had the amp on 4-5 and used my volume knob on 10 o'clock, it sounded a lot like the amp on 3, but lacked the punch of the volume control full on. I will try gigging with the amp on 4 and using the control all the way on and use my dynamics to play louder during louder passages.
The chords on this amp are stunning at all volumes. I will be tongueblocking a lot more just because of how awesome it sounds. When playing single notes, the DT and 1210 sound nearly identical at said settings, but you can hear the difference in bass with the chords and when tongue blocking in general.
So...if I had been responsible with my gear money in the past, I would totally have a DT and HG1210. ;) But, I don't feel that I *need* a small amp for gigging with a full band, which is what I always do. The 1210 can do what the DT can...but if I only played small/medium clubs, I'd be fine with the DT.
The 1210 sounded really consistent in tone from 4-8ish, although it got louder. There was much more break up beyond that. That is exactly the kind of thing I am looking for. This amp has a tonal sweet spot that gives you good control over overall volume. ----------
Harpaholic wrote: "Apparently there's mods used in the SJ's that's not used in the HG's?" & "SJ amps have lower voltages in the preamp to reduce gain." Fixed bias SJs use preamp tube selection & speaker choice to shape the tone & fight feedback. Put the stock 5F6A tubes in a SJ and you'll struggle to get the volume over "2" with a typical Hi-Z harp mic. I'm not saying that anything that can be done with an SJ can also be done with a HG50 410 (there's one less preamp tube, therefore a little less flexibility on that front), but just as Sonny provides preamp tubes for customising the sound, it's worth trying the same with the HG50. SJs may have lower preamp voltage nowadays, but if they do, they didn't for years & not until quite recently. Without knowing what the HG voltages are (I've never seen any info specifically relating to this, nor am I asking for any, if Brian wanted us to know he would tell us), we can't know if they are higher or lower than the SJ.
TMF714 wrote: "Most of the feeback resistance comes from the tone cicuit. Sonny insists on using only military grade NOS paper in oil caps, the only amp builder I know who uses these caps specifcally." Paper & oil caps do not reduce feedback, assuming that comparable values are used. The paper & oil caps could be said to have a purer, less coloured sound.
Not trying to rain on anyone's parade, not trying to influence anyone's choices or decisions. Just trying to establish the facts from the speculation/assumptions/misunderstandings. Both amps have their fans, rightly so, but they are different enough to avoid direct comparison.
I agree completely, there is nothing like the tweed Fender amps. Once you get used to that tone, no modeling amp or pedal in the world can touch it.
That Bandmaster is a beauty, one of the few I haven't owned (or even played) and for which I don't have schematics. I like the way you are headed on tubes, nobody would complain about 5881's in that rig. I assume from the low serial number that is a model 5C7 with the 6SC7 preamp tubes--not much you can do to tweak the tone there. But don't forget the rectifier, the effect on tone will surprise you, I think. My 5B5 Pro really came alive when I switched to an old black plate Tung-sol 5U4GB rectifier. Stevie Ray probably sat straight up somewhere up there to listen a little closer .
Mojo has just started carrying "Vitamin T" paper in oil caps that you can use instead of those Mallory polyester caps. I heartily recommend doing this switch. A few pioneer amp designers and techs, like Sonny Jr. in Connecticut and Bob Dixon in LA, have been hip to this for years, but in the last year the rest of the world is starting to understand how much the coupling caps change the sound of your amp. Get a list of values from the ones that are in there and figure what you need. They got to be "slow" dielectric (paper in oil or old molded) all the way through the tone path to really change the way things sound. Talk to your amp tech.
A 5Y3 recifier tube will also adjust the wattage,allowing more usable volume with less feedback. 12AY7 tubes have half the gain of 12AX7's. Sonny also recommends copper can 5AR4 rectifiers for his amps. Currently,Sonny's amps are running lower plate voltages. He also make unique choices for his power and output transfomers.
Last Edited by on Apr 07, 2010 2:26 PM
A 5Y3 rectifier tube is not a good idea in a fixed bias 6L6 amp, they don't have great current handling capacity and will fail long before a 5U4/GZ34/SS. They are feasibly useable but always carry a spare rectifier & fuse, because the 5Y3 will fry the fuse when it fails. 5Y3 can be fine in cathode biased 6L6 amps because the current draw doesn't rise significantly under signal (but it will exceed 100mA per tube easily in a fixed bias amp). Neither the SJs that are currently built (SS/Cruncher/Avenger), nor the HG50 are cathode biased (SJ1 & SJ2 were cathode biased). 5Y3 will also drop output power compared to 5U4/GZ34, possibly retain the same actual output (if you get enough sweep on th vol pot), but not raise it...it may still "work" for you, you may well prefer the tone of it.
"Currently, Sonny's amps are running lower plate voltages." That may be true as regards voltages overall (B+, power tubes), but not preamp voltage specifically AFAIK. Because preamps draw very little current, the voltage here stays "ball park" even with noticable changes at the power section.
12AY7 halves the mu (or thereabouts) when fitted to a tweed bassman/bandmaster style circuit, but if used in V1 of an HG50 (which looks to use both halves of the same tube in series - the equivalent of subbing 2 tube in one go on a tweed style circuit) it will cut overall mu by about 80%...again this may still work for you, there's not really any "right/wrong" about which preamp tubes to use, you just need to experiment & see what suits your playing style & mic output.
Last Edited by on Apr 09, 2010 4:57 AM
First gig last night with the volume on 4 and no need for the AFB+. Worked great. It was the best I've heard myself on stage. The room had a large stage and seats up to about 200 max. For some stupid reason, nothing was miked but the bass drum and vocals, so I had to fill the room on my own.
'nothing was miked but the bass drum and vocals, so I had to fill the room on my own.'
The point to me is that the amp did this 'room-filling', and nicely, I gather. That's the other side of the arguement of large amp vs. small amp-a player who plays regularly has to be prepared for a situation like you were in:either a lackluster soundman/p.a. or not ample time to set up properly. These things would render a low watt amp in a big room useless. Having a good-sounding small amp is important to me, and works well unless I found myself in a situation like you described. I need a monster, too, I guess!
I think the DT may have held its own, maybe. It depends on the band. I mean, my guitar player had a Princeton Reverb unmiked (ugh!), but he didn't really push for it to be miked anyways. We played with a lost more volume control and dynamics on stage than that bands before and after us, so I could probably have played with less.
But, having 50w was sweet. With tubing the preamp down a bit, the amp wasn't going to be as loud as a 50w guitar amp anyways, but I am sure a DT or 35 would have done ok. I really liked having headroom and I could have been a lot louder. I didn't need to be, though.
I went with the HG1210 because I knew I wanted clean headroom and I knew I liked the speakers. I would imagine the 35 could be set up to work at a similar volume but sound a little dirtier. You may need to roll tubes or speakers, though.
The HG1210 is exactly what I was looking for in 2008 when I sold my first DT and a Bassman Ltd. I wanted something similar to a 35-50w 2x10 that was voiced for harp and loud before feedback, but not the weight or volume of a 4x10.
I had the set video taped, but have no idea how it sounds. I know for sure the FOH sound wasn't what we would have wanted, but I had two good friends there (a drummer and sound man) and they felt that the mix was superior to the other groups and my amp sounded "cleaner" than the DT but was a good volume. That's exactly what I wanted.
With no monitors I heard exactly what I wanted to on stage even during loud passages. But again, I want a clean sound. If you listen to any of the DT clips from our new cd (check out North Wind at our MySpace for example), that's what I mean by clean. Another reference would be Carlos del Junco on the Just Your Fool Album or on Blues Mongrel.
Here is a clip with the DT from Rick Davis's blog...there is a review of the DT up there. 11th position on a B harp...sort of a trippy piece.
I like the amp's tone in that clip-works well with the music(not too clean, enough dirt to throw it out there). In a loud stage situation, though, where your amp isn't mic'd up or di'd/lined-out to the board-you NEED the extra air and volume that the bigger speakers and higher wattage will give you. Studio? Fine with a small amp-I wish i had a decent-sounding small amp when I did my am540 recordings last year-I ended up on a 57 right into the board. ---------- Todd L Greene. V.P.
I agree. I always miked the DT and this is one of only a couple of gigs I've ever done without miking. I would have wanted the DT in my monitor. The tone of that thing is perfect for me, but there are variables with volume.
I've gigged with the following (all were bought used and for really good deals): Peavey 30 Mesa Boogie MkII Bassman Ltd Some small 1x10 National that wasn't mine Pro Jr DT Kalamazoo Allen Old Flame Vibro Champ HG50 1210
The two HG amps were by far the best sounding amps I've played. I've used a SM57 as my main mic for all of these amps. The Mesa and Bassman and Old Flame could get really loud but I would always have to use the Kinder AFB (or mod the Bassman, which rocked but was too big and heavy).
The HG50 is small enough to tilt or easily elevate and it can get loud without the Kinder, but sound good on 3. Outdoors I am sure it would absolutely be perfect. ----------
I would strongly disagree that we play at crazy volumes, let alone "loud" volumes. In fact, we are usually complimented on volume.
Here is a clip from the first gig out with the amp (volume on 4...slightly louder than the DT which the HG50 was as loud as just past 3). I don't like the fidelity loss of tubing down other than at home, so I am back to the stock configuration after the show. At home I can still get to 4 without feedback. I will have much better clips with that this weekend...we didn't get to sou.
At this show, we came in a bit underpowered as the sound guy miked nothing but vocals and bass drum. Everything else was left on its own. I will fully conecde that a 4x10 would have been optimal here, but this is the ONLY time I've ever been told that the sound guy DOESN'T want to mike anything. Every other band played with "bigger" amps and our sound was honestly best...coming from other people. Man, what a sonic disappointment overall. That is a guitar player's 4x10 on the chair behind me...the HG50 is hard to see but below it. My guitar player is using a Princeton Reverb RI, unmiked and on about 6 with no pedals.
I have the wireless running into the Kinder AFB+ which is more noticeable even with the knobs set to neutral (like they were here). I also have a delay on.
This is on an F harp, so I know it isn't the "best" example of demoing an amp, but bear with my until after this weekend. We only did 5 songs and they were all with harps that were C or higher.
