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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
New Amp Set-up Question.....again...
New Amp Set-up Question.....again...
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harpdude61
74 posts
Apr 06, 2010
9:07 AM
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Hey Yall! I need help from you players in the know again.
My Double Trouble from Harpgear should be here anyday and I went ahead and ordered a Lone Wolf Harp Delay.
My first question.... is the Harp Delay 1/4" in and out?
Also, I have heard you guys talk about line length affecting sound. My Green Bullet has the line built in and I would guess it to be maybe 15 ft long. What length "instrument" line should I use from delay to amp? I've heard some say they leave their delay sitting on or inside the amp? Any brand lines prefered? I'm sure lines have different grades?
Any help, comments, and suggestions are appreciated because I do need to purchase everything and learn to use it SOON! I've been invited to sit in with a band at one of our local marinas later this month and I really want to be able to use my new toys.
I am also going to go ahead and order the Sm 57 to mic the amp with, so I thought I would order any other needed cables and accessories as well.
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7LimitJI
91 posts
Apr 06, 2010
9:36 AM
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"is the Harp Delay 1/4" in and out?"
Yes
What length "instrument" line should I use from delay to amp?
Sit the delay on top of the amp and get a "patch lead" 1/4 to 1/4 They are about 12" or so long.
Get a quality cable, Klotz is good
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Those Dangerous Gentlemens Myspace
Due to cutbacks,the light at the end of the tunnel has been switched off.
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harpdude61
75 posts
Apr 06, 2010
9:43 AM
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Thanks! THis forum has been a lifesaver for me!
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lumpy wafflesquirt
193 posts
Apr 06, 2010
9:51 AM
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what, an out of the box lead???
shouldn't you be getting a custom made one, or better still buy the plugs and cable and make your own to fit.
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"Come on Brackett let's get changed"
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5F6H
53 posts
Apr 06, 2010
10:08 AM
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Critical lead is the one between mic & effect, both in terms of length & quality (not price, just how good it sounds - as yours is built in it's pretty much a moot point). As the signal from the effect to the amp is lower impedance it doesn't suffer so much from degredation from long cable runs.
The ULTIMATE would be a 6-7ft, lo capacitance lead running from mic to a delay at your feet, then a 15-20ft lead from delay to the amp...I used to do this...but it's also the ultimate PITA so I soon grew out of it! Nobody commented on the subsequent degredation in tone! :-)
Now I use a decent 15ft lead from mic to amp (Klotz La Grange, Sommer Session II, Planet Waves, even the cheapy Proel guitar cables sound OK) and a short patch cord from delay to amp...like everyone else.
Instrument cables are cheap enough, they fail from time to time so always have few on hand & compare them to decide which you prefer.
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HarpNinja
340 posts
Apr 06, 2010
10:10 AM
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I like using a pedal as an extension cord of sorts. So I'd run the mic into the pedal, have the pedal by my feet, and then run a cable to the amp.
I would suggest the Gepco cables from LavaCable.com. They are terrific and very harp friendly.
The delay may work as a buffer if it isn't true bypass. If it is true bypass, than I'd get about a 6 foot cable. Having had a DT and delay, I always felt it was hard to get it to sit nicely on top without falling or pulling it off.
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Joe_L
137 posts
Apr 06, 2010
10:11 AM
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@harpdude - You may not need to worry about mic'ing that amp. It can get pretty loud and won't be drown out unless you are playing with some really loud musicians.
Personally, I would used the line out feature and get a good instrument cable with 1/4" male connectors on both ends. It's less of a hassle than miking the amp. It's a nice insurance policy. I've only used it a couple of times.
That way, you don't have to carry an SM57, cable and mic stand.
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harpdude61
76 posts
Apr 06, 2010
11:43 AM
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Wow! Must be 100 ways to set things up. Multiply that by other variables such as venue, other musicians, crowd preferences and it seems endless.
Joe, I figured I would need to mic the amp since I will be playing some outdoors. I'm fine with a line out, but I hear on this forum that with line out you don't capture the true tone of the amp.
Sorry Lumpy....It's all I can do to stay within budget here..plus I need a couple new harps.
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slowblowfuse
17 posts
Apr 22, 2010
6:48 AM
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Came across this post late....Been wondering about this line-out/mic out thing....
Mic your amp and you get your speaker sound into the PA. But after it's done the journey with a soundman as gatekeeper, I'm wondering what's left....
Some amps have a line-out that doesn't take the signal from the pre-amp but from some point just before the speakers. Line out is less hassle, no mic stand to trip over or a careless band member kicking the mic into your speakers....
Anyway, most audiences won't pick up on the difference at all even if there is one.
Bye,
Ruurd
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slowblowfuse
18 posts
Apr 22, 2010
6:50 AM
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Oh, and there's no bleed through from that 150 watts guitar amp either....
Bye,
Ruurd
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Joe_L
177 posts
Apr 22, 2010
8:03 PM
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@harpdude61 - I've used it a few times. It sounded good to me. A friend of mine recorded a show we played where I used it. I'll see if I can dig up the recordings.
Personally, I've read that, too. I decided to try it. It worked for me. You may not like it, but you'll never know unless you try it. It's pretty low risk.
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htownfess
59 posts
Apr 23, 2010
3:13 AM
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Ooh, hate to expand the options, but it's also possible to put a delay into the lineout line instead of between the mic and amp. It's one way around the harp mic's input impedance issues and shortens your mic cord run into the amp. A proper output stage lineout signal is usually cut down to the level of a mic or instrument signal so that it doesn't clip the front end of the PA, and thus can be run into the front end of a delay. One of the best sounds I've ever gotten was running my tweaked Sonny Jr 1's lineout through a Boss DD-3 into a National Stage Star: two midsize amps, one dry, one wet.
The LW delay does not have mic input impedance issues, though, so putting it after the amp would be a matter of choice, not necessity. One difference with the lineout delay would be you hearing a clearer dry tone out of the amp itself, which might be useful for hearing yourself onstage.
Don't worry about a lineout "not giving the true tone of the amp." A good output-stage lineout, well EQ'd at the board, will give an accurate picture of your playing and what the amp's circuit is doing with it. If the amp's tubes are doing cool things, and you're doing competent things at the harp/mic end, a proper lineout will deliver good stuff to the audience. I'm afraid it does depend on *your playing* being worthy of being heard clearly.
Speakers are just filters of what the circuit and you are doing; they only subtract, they don't add, apart from speaker breakup, which turns into fuzz-out if you have too much of it. So if you set your PA channel to be a good filter of what the lineout is delivering from the amp circuit, you can get quite a good tone coming out of the PA. There is usually more need of *clarity* in those bigger stage/larger venue situations, if your harp is to be heard well in the mix, so any speaker breakup from your harp amp is not necessarily going to be missed.
As for EQing the PA channel, I use a process I learned from 5F6H, which I hope I am recounting accurately: Take a lower-key harp like an A or G, and turn the EQ knobs down a bit on the PA channel. Cup up and play a sustained 2Dbb bend, and bring the bass up till it starts to turn muddy, then back the bass knob down below the muddying point to get the max bass the PA will project clearly. Next work some 3D bends, opening & closing your hands for some wah action, etc., and bring the midrange knob up till the wahs start to pop out & project to your satisfaction. You have some leeway to choose how much more midrange at that point, can go more toward hornlike sound if you want, but PA horns tend to emphasize midrange brassiness so you don't want to overdo that. Then for treble, play a 4D and bring the treble knob up till you get proper definition. Again, you may be able to get away with piling on more treble past the clarity point, but as with the other knobs, there's a point where you can hear it start to become too much. Once all three ranges have been EQed, run through the sequence again quickly to check each band in case interaction of the EQ knobs has affected any of the ranges.
The above process works on amps too, works on PA channels that have only bass/treble adjustment, and works for running something like a Harp Attack or simply a mic straight in to the PA. As noted above, you are just setting the PA to be a satisfactory filter of what you are sending to it.
As Joe's experience suggests, I suspect a Double Trouble's lineout sounds a lot like what you hear from the amp; sounds like the DT's stock speakers are chosen for feedback resistance, not breakup.
Important rule when using a line out or micing an amp: Make nice to whoever is running sound. Introduce yourself, explain your needs clearly, thank them afterward.
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harpdude61
98 posts
Apr 23, 2010
5:09 AM
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Wow!..even more to absorb....good stuff!
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congaron
842 posts
Apr 23, 2010
6:30 AM
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Unless it's me running sound and the harp will always be in the mix...no matter how you play....lol. Same with the guitar, the vocals, bass, drums (if mic'd or electronic kit)keys...etc. I wish more sound guys would focus on a good mix without all the political nonsense...."treat me right, I'll make you sound good...etc."
BTW, I have actually experimented with a mic into an active Di direct in to the PA. It's a possibility if you have a good sound person and want to travel light once in awhile. You have to boost the bass, cut the treble and tweak the midrange by frequency on the channel strip, but it gives a nice crunchy tone.
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Rick Davis
310 posts
Apr 23, 2010
9:27 AM
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A well-designed speaker-sampling line out sounds very good. It is a myth that mic'ing an amp is the only way to get good tone through the PA. Mic placement and angle are critical, and it takes a lot of futzing with the mic to get it just right. A good line out will get the same good tone every time, with no bleed and fewer feedback issues through the monitors. The Harpgear Double Trouble is an good amp with a well-designed line out.
If you don't have a line out: A DI that connects in-line in the speaker cable is also good. I like the Hughes & Kettner Red Box. I use it with my Masco ME-18 and Epi cab; excellent PA tone.
I think too much is made of cable length and quality. With high impedence quarter-inch cables and typical bullet mics, you will not hear any degradation in signal until you get to ridiculously long cables; say, over 30 feet. Spending tons of money on high-end cables won't make you sound better. I use mid-priced Live Wire cables and Planet Waves cables. Never had a problem, and I cannot hear any difference when using a high-dollar cable.
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
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