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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Amp/Mic Dummie Questions
Amp/Mic Dummie Questions
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harpdude61
58 posts
Mar 31, 2010
9:36 AM
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Someone please write the book "Harmonica Amplification For Dummies". That would be me.
I have progressed enough in my playing that I am getting offers to sit in with a couple of local bands and feel the need to move beyond playing thru the PA. Gigs both indoors and out.
The problem is I know nothing about the tech side of amplified harmonica. I mean ZERO...watts, impedence, crystals, diodes, tubes...just as well be written in Chinese to me.
I am in the market for a tube amp and the best mic for the job, but I must admit I am intimidated when I look at the harp amp websites and really don't speak the language. This is a big investment for me, so I want to get it right.
What I have now is a Green Bullet someone gave me. Its heavy and says made in Mexico. I have a Bottle O Blues and a Pignose Hog 20.
I hope some of you experts without a financial interest in harp amplification will answer some of my questions. Please e-mail if you prefer harpdude61@yahoo.com
Why do most of the custom harp amp sites say the amp has a line out that you can run to the PA, when most players I have seen mic the amp? Would I need a "special" mic for that too?
Do I really need an EQ pedal?
Should I go with the biggest amp I can afford? Would I still have to mic it outdoors?
What is the deal on knobs? Anywhere from 2 to 10. Why so many names for knobs? power, volume, meat, tone, hi, lo ,mid, presence, treble, bass, gain, tube stack, just to name a few (wonder how many we could come up with).
Can I buy both amp and mic without the need to have them modified or something changed out? Plug in and play!
Like I said, I have looked at Harpgear, FatDog, Meteor (too much) and others. I need to act soon and any help would be appreciated.
Thanks!
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Kyzer Sosa
256 posts
Mar 31, 2010
9:44 AM
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If money wasnt the issue, id go harpgear and use my sm57 till i found something better
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Kyzer's Travels
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Honkin On Bobo
245 posts
Mar 31, 2010
9:57 AM
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Though I am not in the same position as harpdude61, I am equally frustrated regarding this topic and echo his words. Anyone who can either pull this topic together or point us in the right direction of a book would be doing the forum a great service.
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congaron
741 posts
Mar 31, 2010
10:08 AM
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I would seriously consider starting with the richard hunter website, free patches (or buy the set) and a digitech modeler straight into the PA. I do this for my jam rig and the whole setup is in my briefcase.
Especially if you also play guitar, there is minimal investment and plenty of good tone for my purposes...probably for yours too. If you don't play guitar, you can sell it on ebay if you don't like it. You can even buy the first one on ebay for cheap.
I'm not saying I don't have a tube amp I like to gig with, but I truly don't believe the audience cares about the tone nuances. I get plenty of honk, grit, dirt, rasp or clean through the pedal and the PA with a cut down vocal mic. The notes and the feeling are what count the most.
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Kingley
1060 posts
Mar 31, 2010
10:15 AM
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"Why do most of the custom harp amp sites say the amp has a line out that you can run to the PA, when most players I have seen mic the amp? Would I need a "special" mic for that too?"
You can line out or mic up the choice is up to you. If you mic up then you'd need a Shure SM57 or something similar to mic the amp with.
"Do I really need an EQ pedal?"
No.
"Should I go with the biggest amp I can afford? Would I still have to mic it outdoors?"
Well it depends on where you going to be playing mainly as to the size of amp you'd need. Yes you would have to mic it outdoors.
"What is the deal on knobs? Anywhere from 2 to 10. Why so many names for knobs? power, volume, meat, tone, hi, lo ,mid, presence, treble, bass, gain, tube stack, just to name a few (wonder how many we could come up with)."
Basically you want an amp with volume, mid, bass, treble. Avoid amps with gain controls as generally speaking they aren't good harp amps.
"Can I buy both amp and mic without the need to have them modified or something changed out? Plug in and play!"
Yes you could buy a custom harp amp like the HarpGear, Sonny Jr, Meteor, Fatdog, etc. You do not need to buy a mic. The green bullet is one of the most commonly used harp mics and you already have one.
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GamblersHand
179 posts
Mar 31, 2010
10:16 AM
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I remember Adam's got a youtube on this very subject. Also I think that David Barrett has written a short book
Assuming youre in the US, then HarpGear looks a good way forward, set up for harp so no tube swaps or whatnot. Boutique amps don't come cheap, though.
I'd go for the two 8" model - I think it's "Double Trouble". With good acoustic tone and a high gain mic you should be able to get aay with that at small/medium venues, and then use the p.a. for a bit of headroom for larger gigs.
As for the line-out, I'm sure that more electronically-minded folk can better answer, but generally some line-out signals are "clean" and so you can't use the amp as a power amp to drive another amp or the p.a. If it's been set up so not to require any speaker load then you'll get that "brown" sound through the p.a.
I use a Marble Max, not dissimilar to a HG2 with a single 8", which has this kind of line-out, but I actually find it too harsh a sound, so prefer to put a mic in front. I do fing though that in the louder songs that it doesn't quite cut it as a monitor alone which is why I'd recommend the twin 8" version - or bigger if your budget (and back) will allow
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GamblersHand
180 posts
Mar 31, 2010
10:20 AM
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Kingly - I didn't see your post before I responded, so sorry about repeating a lot of your post.
I'm curious about your commment regarding the gain. I thought this is just the pre-amp knob, which can allow a bit more colouring of the sound when you adjust with the master volume. Am I missing something? Thanks
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5F6H
47 posts
Mar 31, 2010
10:28 AM
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Line out - typically for lower to mid sized amps, taken from a voltage divider off the speaker & sent to a PA/mixer. A proportion of the speaker output now comes out of the PA, ideal for laid back bands where you can still use the amp itself for a monitor, once you start using stage monitors to hear yourself it becomes a bit of a moot point. Micing up any amp is possible, but then you might get into trouble with feedback through the monitors & needing your own monitor if the bandleader doesn't have one for you.
The line out just needs a regular guitar lead to connect to the PA. If you want to mic up, buy an SM57 and an XLR-XLR mic lead.
Any stage amp will still normally need to be mic'd up outside, or in larger venues, not always just because of outright volume, but because the PA/house sound system will spread the sound better (think of split level/multi-room venues).
No you don't need an EQ pedal, especially if you're talking about buying brand new, purpose built for the job.
If you want to play out with a band, yes, buy the most powerful/loudest amp you can afford. Yes, it will normally need to be mic'd outdoors, unless you are running the venue, they will be prepared & equipped for this.
Some amps for harp have unique controls, hence unusual designations. As you make a more powerful amp, you need a more complex EQ...it's just a fact of life.
The Harpgear HG50 & Meteor seem to be priced in a similar band, why do you think the Meteor is too much? For smaller gigs amps like the Fat Dog, Mini Meat, HG Double Trouble, HG30, SJr Cruncher may be adequate, but for a typical bar band, a couple of guitars with a loud drummer, the bigger 50W type amps are a better bet. If you just want to plug in & play, new amps that offer a bang for the buck are the big Meteor, Super Reverb, BF Twin.
The fact that you think the Meteor is "too much" now makes me think that looking for something used might be an idea...Harpking 4x10", Super Reverb, Brown Concert, 4x10"Bassman (tweaked or otherwise)? For a second hand amp you might be lucky & find a used amp set up for harp, usually (IF you need mods) you will need to take/send it to a tech for fine tuning. No matter how good/expensive/well built any amp is, you should expect to live with it a while & do some experimenting before you can exploit it to its fullest (it might be love at first sight if you are lucky).
If the whole amp thing souds like a minefield, keep playing throug the PA, maybe try the Lone Wolf Harp Attack, but the sooner you get used to using an amp & get familiar with the benefits & pitfalls, the sooner you'll be making a great sound through it.
Accept the fact that unless you have someone local, who can advise & help, you may just have to kiss a few frogs before you get to amp nirvana. Most gigging players have a couple of amps. Never sell one, for another until you have put the 2 side by side & compared.
"I need to act soon"...do some practical research, try a few things if you can, doing something like this in a rush is never a good idea, unless you find an amp that you just have to have.
Last Edited by on Mar 31, 2010 10:30 AM
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harpdude61
59 posts
Mar 31, 2010
11:15 AM
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Wow! Thanks everyone for some great answers. I need to research and absorb cuz like i said....I don't know the language.
Congaron....What is a patch and a modeler? Is it a foot pedal? Remember, talking to an amplification virgin here.
Kingley...Isn't an SM57 used for direct harp mic too or are those modified?
5F6H........I'm trying not to spend over $1500 for amp AND accessories. That is what I meant by too much. I guess you would need a big amp as well if you ever practice with a band? Do bands usually set up a PA for practice? I do not want to be wishing I had a bigger amp.
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harpdude61
60 posts
Mar 31, 2010
11:18 AM
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What is a cut down mic?
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5F6H
48 posts
Mar 31, 2010
11:23 AM
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"Do bands usually set up a PA for practice? I do not want to be wishing I had a bigger amp." Depends on the band, but you should expect so. I prefer to rehearse at as low as volume as necessary, but most guys love any excuse to use their favourite/loudest amp, how loud the drummer plays will be factor & many bass players seem to just have their gig amp.
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congaron
742 posts
Mar 31, 2010
11:24 AM
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Check your e-mail. I just sent you a non-technical way to get into the PA without the modeler. Some of the guys here are familiar with the Harp attack and really like it. It's a simple solution you can still use after you get the amp of your dreams.
A cut down mic is just a vocal mic i literally sawed into a shorter body and reattached the connector with epoxy into the new larger opening in the bottom. No big modification except for flattening the ball screen to get it closer to the mic element. The mic I used is similar in specs to an sm57.
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LittleJoeSamson
275 posts
Mar 31, 2010
12:15 PM
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"The line out just needs a regular guitar lead to connect to the PA."
Better check that! Most lineouts call for SPEAKER cable. You might even damage the amp or the PA by using a guitar cord.
The heavier speaker cable will also send more pure signal to the mains, thus allowing correct levels to be set at the amp.
Lineouts are great. It obviates alot of the potential problems that can happen with micing.
My Blackheart doesn't have a lineout, so I have to use micing the cab. I got a Cabgrabber for this which I highly recommend. Puts the mic right in the sweet spot, and no one trips over the mic stand. I use an Audix i5, which I compared to an SM57beta and liked better. The Shure picked up more trebles and side noise.
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harpdude61
61 posts
Mar 31, 2010
1:21 PM
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Does speaker cable look the same as guiar lead. 1/4" male on both ends? Maybe learning Chinese would be easier..lol
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Bluzdude46
557 posts
Mar 31, 2010
1:37 PM
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No worries, we all have gone thru this phase.problem is most music stores (I call them Friendly Freddies Music Emporium, There's one in every town) Carry Major Brand amps that are designed for GUITAR. Your choices are, buy a good solid platform designed for guitar and with help online or have a tech modify it. Spend lots of $$ on a Vintage tube amp, good luck it's only as good as the next part that goes bad. Or go big and spend a considerable amount of money on a Boutique amp, which IS WELL WORTH It yet not all have that kinda expendable money. This is why I asked If we could do the Amp testing at Hill Country. So those of us who have made the amp tone pilgrimage can save some of the younger and newer Harp players alot of the trial and error.
For the record I prefer a correctly mic'd speaker then line outs. you never know how the line out is wired pre or post amp and the speaker is an intregal part of the sound, sending a signal to a 15" or 18" PA Speaker thru a PA pre amp is NOT the same sound you get out of an 8" or 10" speaker and guitar cords are shielded, speaker cords are not even tho' they both have 1/4" plugs. I've never had a problem with a shielded cable going from a line out to a powered input. Any other questions?
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The Original Downtown Philadelphia Fatman... Accept No substitutes!
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harpdude61
62 posts
Mar 31, 2010
1:47 PM
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Bluzdude..I have lotsa questions. Do PAs have different settings for each line in? highs, lows etc. How would you set that for ....harp mic line out? harp amp being miked? modeler? my Green Bullet direct to PA?
I am just amazed at how deep this gets...of course I said the same thing after a few months of learning harp.
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strawwoodclaw
4 posts
Mar 31, 2010
2:12 PM
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you want a low gain amplifier & a high impedance microphone. small medium amps are ok for gigging if you have a moniter speaker on stage pointing at you otherwise people in the crowd will be able to hear you loud but you wont be able to hear your self. The vintage amplifiers from the 50s sound good for that raspy edgey Chicago HONK that's if you can get one in good condition. Most pros like a amp that is loud enough to gig without mikeing up but these are big heavey amps. 90s Fender Bassman is a good harp amp . there is a small cheap book on harp amps by David Barret you can pick it up on ebay cheap as chips. most modern guitar tube amps will sound thin for harp & scream feedback at you. you dont need to know the techinal stuff if it sounds good it is good. which country do you live in i know somebody in the UK who makes good harp amps with 2x8 18 watts. a Masco PA will sound as good as any amp - If you have the dough Sonny JR or Harp gear. if you want a small cheap amp Fender 600 , i just read you have $1500 to spend I dont think you could go wrong with a Sonny JR Cruncher it's good middle ground & has a line out
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Bluzdude46
559 posts
Mar 31, 2010
2:25 PM
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Yes generally you would be plugging into a seperate channel on the PA and yes it has tone, gain, volume controls.
However, Look at the purpose of a P.A. It's designed to project a relatively loud volume mostly for a human voice thru a vocal mic without distortion. It is much harder to push a 250w P.A. Amp (generally solid state) to distort, so you get a very bright clear tone (see non Bluesy) As my Brothers have already stated, there are interface boxes that will act as a pre amp to go direct to the P.A. Some are very good. Depends how far you want to go. If all you want to do is 2-3 Jams a month this is a good option. If you intend to go the full tilt you gonna want an amp someday.
Many Amps have line outs, many don't. I prefer Mic'ing the speaker of the amp. I spent a lot of time doing research to get the types of sounds I like amplified, why cut out the speaker?
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The Original Downtown Philadelphia Fatman... Accept No substitutes!
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congaron
744 posts
Mar 31, 2010
3:27 PM
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Use a shielded cable designed to be a patch cord between the line out and the DI box. A speaker cable is more prone to interference with a line level signal. Speaker cables are designed to carry an amplified signal from an amplifier to a speaker, where the high level of signal out weighs the level of any interference it may pick up. For running from a line out just a few feet to a DI box, the guitar cable is a better choice, if you have to choose between that and a speaker cable, especially since the speaker cable is likely to be far longer than you need and that introduces further opportunity for interference. I have seen a guitar accidentally sent to a DI box via a 25 foot speaker cable generating a horrendous hum that was tough to find until we got a close look at the cable. It was a church praise team stage and the cables just got mixed up through no fault of the sound guy...it was the guitar player who wanted a "longer cable"...lol. We were lucky we didn't burn the guitar cord using it as a speaker cable with the kind of power we potentially had going through it.
Last Edited by on Mar 31, 2010 3:58 PM
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mrdon46
36 posts
Mar 31, 2010
11:07 PM
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Here are a few suggestions, based not on how I did things, but on how, in retrospect, I wish I had:
1) decide what you actually need, don't get sidetracked and spend $ on what you don't.
2) for your first setup, get quality equipment that can serve as a benchmark to evaluate future purchases (learn what "good" sounds like).
3) stick with the basics: amp, mic, cables, maybe a DI box and a delay pedal. Other effects and doodads can come later.
You say you have $1500 to spend. While some of the other amps such as a Sonny Jr Cruncher that have been suggested are great, they realistically may be over your budget. For about $1000, you can get a Harpgear Double Trouble--18W is plenty for practice and smaller gigs. For larger gigs and/or outdoors, you'll likely want to line or mic out to the PA anyway no matter what your amp. Get a good mic from a reputable dealer like Greg Heuman--figure $200-$250. Most harp-specific amps like the Harpgear have a line out--though micing the amp will capture the flavor your speaker provides, it's not at all essential and offers advantages (simpler, less potential for feedback). You may want a DI box, lets you run an unbalanced (low impedance) line to the PA--you'll want this if you're running more than 20' of cable to the PA, less hum. If you really want to get into effects, a good delay pedal such as the Lone Wolf Harp Delay is where to start, though it's not essential in order to sound good. Bottom line is, for $1500 you should be able to put together a good rig that sounds good, is usable in the situations you're likely to encounter, and will provide a solid platform for future additions and learning. My $.02.
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5F6H
49 posts
Apr 01, 2010
1:37 AM
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"Better check that! Most lineouts call for SPEAKER cable. You might even damage the amp or the PA by using a guitar cord." As Congaron posted, a "line out" uses a shielded instrument cable (a few require an XLR cable, but not any of the amps mentioned), it needs the shielding to reduce hum/RF. A designated "line out" implies a line level signal (e.g. 0.775VAC @ 600ohms), rather than a speaker output signal measured in W RMS (tens of volts).
Even if the signal is taken from a voltage divider off the speaker terminals (like on the amps mentioned) a voltage divider drops the line out voltage to somewhere between 0.5-2VAC at a few hundred ohms.
Speaker jacks & extension speaker jacks require a dedicated "speaker" cable (no shielding, heavier guage wire).
When you buy the cable, it will say whether it is a speaker cable or an instrument/guitar cable on the pack...if in doubt ask the man behind the counter :-)
Speaker cable used in place of instrument cable will "work" but may well hum & suffer unwanted noise.
Instrument cable used in place of speaker cable may well burn out the conductor, leaving the amp without a speaker load attached, killing the tubes & possibly transformers.
Outputs measured in whole W RMS must never be plugged into amp/PA inputs.
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harpdude61
63 posts
Apr 01, 2010
3:16 AM
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Thanks yall for the info. Slight differences of opinion on cables but that is a good thing. IT is how we learn. I had no idea cables were different.
So the mic to amp line is fine to be guitar cable??..but anything OUT of the map to wherever needs to be speaker cable? I assume these ar on sites like Musicians Friend?
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5F6H
50 posts
Apr 01, 2010
4:07 AM
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Mic to amp = guitar/instrument cable (shielded to prevent hum/interference, lo noise, lo capacitance). Google Lava cable.
"Line out" to mixer/PA/bigger amp input = guitar/instrument cable.
Anything that connects to a speaker, or speaker extension jack/cab = speaker cable. Speaker cable is thicker wire (bigger voltages & currents to handle), no shielding, any substantial 2 conductor wire (18awg or thicker - lower number) will usually suffice, even "lamp cord" from the hardware store can be used.
All the combo amps mentioned are already fitted with all the speaker cables that you need, you only normally need to buy a speaker cable when connecting a head only amp, or a PA amp/mixer, to a speaker cab.
In short, anything connecting to an amp/PA input needs guitar/instrument (or XLR mic depending on connector, usually lo impedance PA/vocal mics only) cable. Anything connecting to a speaker/speaker cab needs speaker cable.
It's not a question of opinion, these are the facts. I build amps & I make up cables.
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congaron
745 posts
Apr 01, 2010
9:30 AM
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yep. This is the way of it.
Speaker cables are ONLY to hook up speakers (or lamps...for that matter).
Shielded cables (like guitar cables) are for any interconnecting of components.
Mics, and guitars can be considered "components" for this purpose as well.
I don't know of any line out that calls for a speaker cable as an interconnect. If I did, i would be making a phone call to get the manual corrected. I will admit I haven't read every manual on the planet, but when I read one that does this, i promise you I will be calling.
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Joch230
61 posts
Apr 01, 2010
9:55 AM
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Harpdude....you said you have a Bottle O Blues Mic. I have one of those too and it's actually a pretty good mic in my opinion.
John
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harpdude61
65 posts
Apr 01, 2010
11:49 AM
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I like my Bottle O Blues mic too. I play it thru my Hog 20 Pignose and sounds pretty good, but it did not work well going thru a PA.....never tried miking the Pig thru the PA?
OKAY...I did it.....Brian says my Harpgear Double Trouble should be here in 5 or 6 days. A lot of you recommend it and it leaves me some $ for accessories.
Thanks to all you fine folks that educated me!
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Bluzdude46
564 posts
Apr 01, 2010
12:01 PM
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That was easy, Guys I think we have a Gear Head in the making!!!
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The Original Downtown Philadelphia Fatman... Accept No substitutes!
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congaron
747 posts
Apr 01, 2010
12:17 PM
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Sweet!
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HTrain
12 posts
Apr 01, 2010
5:16 PM
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He who dies with the most toys wins!!!
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gmacleod15
55 posts
Apr 01, 2010
5:42 PM
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I want to hear the end of the story though....
I want to hear how that Harpgear Double trouble sounds.
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MBH member since 2009-03-24
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toddlgreene
1125 posts
Apr 02, 2010
5:05 AM
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hd61-you did good, my man! One of our club members owns a DoubleTrouble, and that little amp wails! It'll get quite loud, too. Those twin 8's give a decent amount of bottom end and break up quite nicely. I'm probably not allowed to go to this guy's house when his wife is home any more, though...I insisted on cranking the thing to see what it would do, and I think I ruined Dancing With The Stars for her.
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Todd L Greene. V.P.
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MrVerylongusername
1037 posts
Apr 02, 2010
5:49 AM
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Slightly off-topic, but on the subject of speaker cables, I think some of you might like this the j-con - if I'd posted this yesterday noone would have believed that this was an actual product! The blog post tells you everything you need to know.
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toddlgreene
1129 posts
Apr 02, 2010
5:56 AM
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MrVLUN, funny stuff...although I don't think Jesus can save anyone who insists on winning a Darwin Award
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Todd L Greene. V.P.
Last Edited by on Apr 02, 2010 6:00 AM
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