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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
OT What to do when you don't get paid
OT What to do when you don't get paid
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Diggsblues
235 posts
Mar 19, 2010
8:05 AM
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If your gonna play for money this is gonna happen.
One thing that I've done is go to court.
I've won even though the other side has a lawyer.
I've also lost finding out the person that singed
the contract had no standing with club.
A contract can help a lot. Getting deposits are a
good rule if your big enough.
When I used an agent decades ago and used Union Contracts
this helped. Times have changed and new means of making
sure you get paid probably need to be brainstormed.
When I played with the Juan Avila band I can't remember
never getting stiffed and we always ate well on the
club.
With Diggs Blues we got sent home early and
got our pay docked a few times. Not worth the
time to go to court. You got pick you fights.
If you go Union they have legal help for bands on
tour.
I think input by everyone would help
people in the future.
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HarpNinja
295 posts
Mar 19, 2010
8:28 AM
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We have a performance agreement that gets signed before set up. Then verbal confirmation. We ask for our pay before the third set in case their is an issue.
We have only gotten screwed when not using the agreement. We have never done anything from a court standpoint. When we have gotten screwed, we have either settled with the club on our own or eaten the loss (because we didn't get anything in writing).
If we get screwed, we don't go back and we share out the facts of the event with other clubs and bands.
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Mike Fugazzi
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Kyzer Sosa
214 posts
Mar 19, 2010
9:07 AM
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and as it goes, should you find out from a soundman in the first set, that the club aint gonna pay ya, and has no intentions of telling you till youre done, you make a spectacle of it, and play oh suzanna all night long...c:
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Bluzdude46
541 posts
Mar 19, 2010
9:09 AM
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I say rip out the Juke box as collateral
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The Original Downtown Philadelphia Fatman... Accept No substitutes!
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alleycatjoe
29 posts
Mar 19, 2010
9:17 AM
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im not clear on how you won? did you get the money for the gig from the court case or did you get nothing because someone signed the contract that didnt have standing. (usually contracts include a clause that says that the person signing has the capacity to sign the contract. im not a lawyer and dont rely on what i say. but you might be able to take the person that signed it to court. then again if they dont have any money what's the point.
this is a good thread and it might be helpful if someone posts a sample contract. as far as the union goes their are very few union clubs anymore. and I dont think the union wants musicians to play in non union clubs but you could check
your right -the best thing is to get a deposit , next best thing is to get paid before you go on.
and getting paid anytime before the end of the gig is also pretty good (Tell the person thats paying you "lets take care of this now so we dont have to do it while were packing up " Make sure the club owner or manager doesn't leave before you get paid. club owners are notorious for stiffing bands especially if they don't have a good night and they also might want to cut the agreed pay. if you see that you haven't drawn a crowd you might want to work with them on this. it definitely helps to speak with other bands that have worked for the club. it really helps to have a booking agent because he's usaully dealt with the owner before.
I Heard a story about Earle Hooker(blues guitar player), he was playing for the door at a club. and when he went to get paid the club owner stiffed him. So he took the door-it was the front door of the club.
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XHarp
297 posts
Mar 19, 2010
9:48 AM
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It basically boils down to honourable people doing what they agreed to.
If you didn't get paid and its because the hall/bar just stiffed you then, unless you are a member of the local musicians union you're pretty much on your own.
Good Luck.
If you're a member of the musicians union you can get their help as Diggs Blues noted but even that is extremely limited. Best you can hope for is that the place gets blacklisted by artists and talent managers but then DJs will get the nod after that.... and that's not good for live music either
To avoid getting stiffed?
First and foremost, make sure you're playing what the crowd wants to hear and what the owner of the place is hiring you to play. you know, Don't go into a blues bar and start screaming like Ozzie. You ain't gonna get paid and ya' might get lynched.
You can try a contract/agreement but that still doesn't mean you are going to get paid that night. It means that you have something to support your position with in court and/or something that can sway the owners decision to at least pay you something.
Be aware that same contract can be your demise too. And, you have to get the management to agree to sign it. Sometimes they won't.
Get taken on by a local management company. If you don't get paid by the venue you may be able to get something from the management company or at least you will have a contract with them that will give something to support your position with in court.
HarpNinja has about the best solution but again the agreement is only as good as the person is willing to sign it.
As I said, honourable people doing what they said they were going to do and this wouldn't be an issue.
Now, here's the local twist in southern ontario. You can play the venue but you have to solicit the tables yourself for "donations" to the cover charge. You can also sell your wares during the night but, the caveat is that you cannot solicit cover charges from anyone who is in the bar before the band takes the stage. How's that for a twist? As the band doesn't usually start until 9 or 10 pm, most of the place is already filled up. You get to collect from anyone after that, slim pickin's for sure, and those that are already in there are too drunk to be interested in your CD's/T-Shirts.
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"Keep it in your mouth" - XHarp
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jawbone
282 posts
Mar 19, 2010
10:16 AM
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I've been trying to get into a couple of organizations around here for awhile now, with no luck, so today I gave them the deal "Book us in, if the people like us, pay us, if they don't like us, don't pay us" Now this is not a normal bar or club but I figured, what the heck, it ain't gonna make us or break us, but it will be the foot in the door.
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If it ain't got harp - it ain't really blues!!!!
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Diggsblues
236 posts
Mar 19, 2010
10:32 AM
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im not clear on how you won? did you get the money for the gig from the court case or did you get nothing because someone signed the contract that didnt have standing.
Two different cases. One the judge ordered payment and
I got a check on the spot.
The other one too crazy to go into.
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harmonicanick
668 posts
Mar 19, 2010
10:53 AM
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having just had a gig cancelled at very short notice here in the uk this thread interests me a lot.
I spend hours trying to get gigs and in the current economic climate unless you are a 'name' band, the money is in the hands of the bar owner and it ain't very good.
So, here it's not not getting the fee that is the issue, it's, is there an amount of money that makes any sense at all? for a band with 6 members with hungry mouths to feed.
For them it is - get the band as cheap as you can, and if they don't like it there are others who will play for next to nothing.
Very depressing in the uk; some may have a different viewpoint here ie. if you do functions the money can be good. Blues dosen't always go well at weddings etc
We play for looove!!!
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barbequebob
626 posts
Mar 19, 2010
11:10 AM
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My rule of thumb with any gig is if they don't want to sign a contract, as advised by an attorney, the alternate way that is legally binding is sending them a letter of confirmation, which resembles a contract, and like a contract, you make sure there's 3 copies, one for the club, one for your office files, and another that you make damned sure you bring with you at the club.
Many of these gigs aren't gonna be settled anywhere else but small claims court and that can be a hassle on to itself, and you gotta do it in the state this happened in and then it's you who has to chase after these people.
Bands that are big drawing bands with a good following are less likely to have that happen than a band with little or no following, and if you have a good following and can pack any place at any time, any day of the week, then you have some real power, and until that happens, you don't really have much.
There was one time when I tried to get the money for the night from the club owner, the next thing I saw was Mr. Smith & Mr. Wesson (AKA a big ass pistol) in my mouth, and that was one time where the risk of getting killed wan't worth the chase for the money and this is no lie.
It is a tough business and it's only getting worse. The pay is pretty much the same as it was some 30 years ago.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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harmonicanick
669 posts
Mar 19, 2010
11:58 AM
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Amen to that Bob, its the same all over..
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waltertore
285 posts
Mar 19, 2010
1:27 PM
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I use to take it in some way- liqour, PA, etc and give it back when they paid us. That led to a lot of fights, and once the CHIPS pulling us over at gunpoint because the owner called and said we robbed him with automatic weapons. That was in my early days. Now I don't know what I would do because it hasn't happened in probably 20 years.
One thing I do know is when you are playing town to town, there is no reality is suing because by the time the court date comes up, you will be many states or countries away. Hire a lawyer? You are traveling all day, no such thing as cell phones then, and the amount of his fee would probably be as much or more than the gig $. That is when I was ripped off the most. Many club owners knew this and would often cheat you. I saw albert collins cheated regularly. Musicians Union? What is that? Most of the gigs I did with my band and guys like sonny rhodes, cool papa, lightning hopkins, etc, the union was like a forgein thing. We played for cash in hand most of the time. I learned to carry a gun and thankfully I never used it. I also learned that if you beat up an owner you would never get hired back and he would often put out a word on you that you were nuts and dangerous and don't hire. Once I took the TV from a bar and got out to the van. The owner came running out with a bat. I pulled my pistol and he paid up and I gave him his tv back. In reality who would want to play such a place again anyway?? I was with Albert King one night at antones. I was helping him back in his bus. Clifford Antone came out and albert demanded his pay up front. Clifford said no and albert pulled me in the bus and he took off. He got to the driveway and clifford came running with a fist full of bills. Albert counted out his pay and backed it back in. He told me never to trust clifford and that he was a complete drug addict that would cheat you everytime. One regular club we played gave us 10% of the bar. I saw the register staying open for like 10 straight drinks before it closed and a new sale rung up. I confronted the bartender/manager and he was so high on coke that he just handed me a fistfull of money and cried about being an addict. So, if you are doing town to town, you probably are going to get cheated. I guess you have to pick your battles. Unfortunately I picked everyone for too long. I am lucky to still be alive.
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
2,000 of my songs
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Last Edited by on Mar 19, 2010 1:30 PM
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harmonicanick
670 posts
Mar 19, 2010
3:38 PM
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Hey Walter, god what a life you have led!!
like you I feel lucky to be alive..
ps don't forget to press enter in paragraphs when you are posting
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waltertore
286 posts
Mar 19, 2010
6:10 PM
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Harmonicanick: Tonight my wife and I went to the local catholic church for the weekly lent fish fry. Then we walked home, got the dogs, and walked the 2 blocks to the center of our village. Teens were running around, skateboarding, and there was no fear of any them being hurt or kidnaped. They say hi, we talk a bit, they pet our dogs, people stop to chat, we laugh, it was warm. Man what a step back in time this little village is compared to our last residence in Santa Rosa, Ca. I felt so lucky to be alive tonight. The blues got me to this spot in life! Walter
PS: If I got ripped off today, I would just forget about it and not play there again. Life is too short to risk injury over a few dollars and the bad vibes I have had my share.
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
2,000 of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
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gene
422 posts
Mar 19, 2010
6:11 PM
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Don't club owners have any fear of arson?!
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kudzurunner
1273 posts
Mar 20, 2010
3:47 AM
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I'm happy to say that Satan and Adam never got stiffed. But we did have one "situation" on the road, and it's a funny story.
We always played on the road with contracts issued by our management, Talent Consultants International (TCI), which was a big, powerful agency. They were signed contracts. They always stipulated that we were to be paid in cash, before the gig, with all % (or "points") to be paid immediately after the gig. Usually I just waved my hand and said, "Pay us after the gig," and we always got paid that way. It was assumed that we would be paid cash. A 25% or 50% deposit was almost always paid up front.
One time, though, we played a small restaurant in the Hudson River Valley that had just started having live music. The owner was the chef; he was a very good cook and a very inexperienced live-music purveyor.
We played one set: the longest set we ever played: two hours and 15 minutes. This is when we were a two-man act. 2:15 as a harp player next to Mr. Satan was no joke. We worked hard. We had a good crowd. I felt good about going into the kitchen afterwards to talk business. No question: we'd played well, people had shown up.
The chef/owner/payer smiled as he opened up his big ledger-style checkbook. "That was great," he said. "I'm going to need to write you a check for what I owe you, because I don't have the cash. People paid for the music on their dinner tabs, and most people paid for dinner with credit cards."
I said, "Ahhhhhh, the contract is pretty clear that we're supposed to be paid cash."
He smiled, semi-sheepishly. "I know. But I just don't have the cash."
I said, "I hate to be rude, but we've played a lot of gigs over the past four years, and this is the first time we've had a problem with the money. I'd hate for you to be known as the place that gave us trouble on that end."
He continued to look sheepish, but he continued to make signs of being about to write a check.
"Look," I said, leaning forward, "I gotta be honest with you: Mr. Satan is going to get pissed off if I come back with a check. Trust me, you really don't want to make Mr. Satan angry."
He looked agitated. He fumbled with the pen. "Alright, alright," he said. "Lemme talk to the staff and see what I can do."
I felt sheepish playing the Satan card, because I was also sort of playing the race card. I was scaring the whitefolks. It's the only time in my life I've deliberately worked that vein. But it worked.
I guess he went and talked to his employees and managed to finagle enough cash to pay us. I smiled and thanked him when he handed me the wad of cash. "I really appreciate it," I said.
Last Edited by on Mar 20, 2010 3:49 AM
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mojojojo
34 posts
Mar 20, 2010
4:44 AM
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You can always flash a pack of Chesterfields and claim to be from the United Federations of Artists.
(or whatever)
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PaulM
12 posts
Mar 20, 2010
5:46 AM
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As in many other things, information is a great weapon. As someone suggested on a similar post, sharing experiences on forums could at least let folks know where they should be cautious. Perhaps a side forum dedicated to touring professionals where you guys can share such information would be good?
As a non professional band, we don't charge much so it hasn't been a problem. In fact the last gig we played the owner caught us in the parking lot, handed us more money and said if we wanted to be taken serioiusly we should charge more. He then went on to say that we needed to take shorter breaks and have less time between songs. Fortunately, since we all have day jobs, we were able to smile and just say thanks for the input. But based on his input, I will however, bring music to play through the PA during breaks in the future.
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