---------- Hi. So here's my questions: Will having an amp near the PA speakers increase the feedback potential of an amp? And if the amp is miked to the PA is there more potential for feedback being near the PA speakers? What about the proximity of the monitor speaker(s) to a miked amp (that doesn't have a line out) Sorry to stack so many partially irrelevant questions but i'm stuck on a small cave like stage in a terrific club (except for the small stage) on a regular gig basis. I play through a bullet into a big Magnatone clio amp with a 15'' speaker miked (I just bought a Sennheiser E 609 to replace the house SM57 PA mike) and the monitor speaker has to be close because of the tiny space. Thanks so much for any specific attention! (I'm going to post this question on other forums too so ignore the redundancy if noticed) Myspace: dennis moriarty
Proximity of microphone to speakers is the biggest issue, specifically the speakers carrying whatever is going into the microphone. If you are micing the cab, no need to put the harp in your monitor...use the amp as the monitor. Of course anything in your monitor could potentially get into your mic if everything is so close. If the stage is that small, do you really need to mic the amp? is the room unusually large for such a small stage?
Last Edited by on Mar 02, 2010 8:20 PM
Sugar Bar NYC performance Well if the link works this is an example of the environment. this particular song does not exemplify the problem though as the band has gone through changes and become louder- trust me miking it is necessary. Thanks. d ---------- Myspace: dennis moriarty
Talk about a shoebox! I guess playing thru a vocal mic is out of the question. Maybe put your amp over by the gtr. player. That's a tough room. If you had a Harp Attack...
yeah..a digitech pedal into the PA might be the best, but I know you want to use your amp. I carry mine in my harp case to jam nights for that same reason...plus I don't feel like lugging my amp..lol.
Last Edited by on Mar 03, 2010 7:41 AM
I don't know that particular amp, but my gut reaction from lots of experience is that a 15" is trouble. That speaker size, as you know, favors the bottom end of the frequency spectrum--and not necessarily good bottom end, but bottom end that will interact adversely with small spaces. (You'll tend to get corner loading or back wall loading.) The best utilization of a 15" speaker would be in an outdoor context where you could crank it up to just below the feedback point without having to worry at all about low-end feedback. You've got exactly the opposite application.
Miking the amp through the PA will probably just make everything worse. Harp amps sound better, as we all know, when they're cranked up to the point where you get some signal compression thanks to circuit saturation and speaker-coil saturation.
I would suggest the following fixes:
--make sure the amp is elevated off the ground. A couple of milk crates would be best, followed by an open backed chair.
--keep the amp away from the back wall and away from the corners. The worst possible location, for example, would be shoved into a back corner, on the ground; the next-worst would be shoved against the back wall, on the ground. The next-worse location after that would be elevated but still flat against, or very near to, the back wall.
--although this won't make much difference because bass frequencies are omnidirectional, angle it a bit to one side or the other.
--turn it up to just below the feedback point. The amp will have TWO different feedback points, one for low end and one for high end (shriek). Find them both. Turn it up to the point just below where the first of the two feedback frequencies begins to kick in. If this isn't overpowering to your band--and you should step out front to check--leave it there.
--If you're able to get a stable, workable sound having done all those things, you might try miking it. If you mic it, place the mic DIRECTLY in front of the center of the cone. You need every bit of high-end bite you can get. Every bit of low end that comes through the mic will potentially return as low end feedback. Trust me on this. All you need is highs. See what happens to the sound out front as you slowly feed the miked amp into the mix. If you're lucky, it will increase your definition and the quality of your sound out front without making you too loud AND without creating any feedback. Keep the miked amp completely out of the monitor mix until you've taken care of ALL these other details. Ideally, you won't need any harp in the monitor. If you need a little, turn it up very slowly. But in the circumstances you describe, it's almost sure to create problems and will probably lead you 1) to turn down the amp, which will decrease the quality of your tone; and 2) to not play quite as hard, which will decreae the quality of your tone.
The truth is, you'd find it much easier to work in the space you describe with a smaller amp with one 8" speaker, miked up and run through the PA.
Last Edited by on Mar 03, 2010 8:16 AM
Yea it's a tough negotiation but worth it. This is the kind of club that generates a terrific verve. At our last gig Nick Ashford (Ashford& Simpson own the club) was dancing. Whoopi Goldberg and Michael Douglas dropped by recently and the club exemplifies their appreciation with energy and compensation. My best. d ---------- Myspace: dennis moriarty
The clip on your MySpace page shows not only the VERY tight quarters but also that you're delivering a fine sound right now. I don't see much of a problem here:
It does sound good. Is the feedback issue something new since the video? If so, can you pinpoint what changed? If you can and it's possible, reverse it. If the club has made a change to the PA, this may not be possible. The sound guy or gal may be able to help you though. This video is so good, it seems like the problem may have come up since it was shot...Am I right? It seems like the band has a good stage volume in the video, from looking at the interaction of the band members while playing. As a sound guy, I look for signs that somebody can't hear their own amp or is trying to escape somebody else's amp by turning away or walking as far as possible from it. It really sounds nice in the video. This makes me think the sound outside in the room is good as well. I like your harp playing and the band really sounds good.
That is indeed literally my amp played by my friend Mark G. prior to my buying it from him after selling Dennis Gruenling my 4 10'' HK. However that is not the Magnatone in my Sugar Bar clip. That is a (I know you have one of these) Premier twin eight variation ( a twin eight chasis with a 12'' speaker in a different cabinet than the usual twin eight which is how it came from the Premier factory. Thanks for peeking in. d ---------- Myspace: dennis moriarty
I'll add my voice to the "it aint broke, so don't fix it" crowd. One thing I'll add; going in-ear for foldback removes a whole host of feedback issues and means you can lose the wedge, so you'll have a little more space in that tiny alcove!
How does one go about going in-ear. That sure is not ubiquitous as I do not remember seeing any iconic harp players (and I've probably seen them all with the exception of Popper who is not my taste) with ear monitors. d ---------- Myspace: dennis moriarty
personally, I don't care for the sound of my harp while wearing in-ears. By that I mean the way it resonates inside my head acoustically while also in the iem. For me, it doesn't help me play in the pocket with the band until I turn them up beyond a level i am comfortable with in my ears. That's just with harp. I have trouble getting the mix I want..YMMV. For typical playing in band where I don't play harp, I love them. There is an issue with disconnection from the crowd if you don't place ambience mics in the room to give to give you that sound.
Last Edited by on Mar 03, 2010 10:40 AM
I don't have harp in the in-ears unless I'm going direct to the board. If you're miking the amp, you can position the amp to be your monitor. I use just one of the earpieces so I can still get the live mix in one ear, and crystal clear vocals in the other. Works for me.
It looks like you have it set up as close to optimal as possible, the amp is up off the ground, those Seinhiesers reject well when hung flat like that, you have it right in front of the cone like Adam said.
Personally I prefer a less scooped out tone and would try to get the mids up a hair and maybe make the tone a bit wetter with delay, but that is personal taste.
Nobody can tell you not to worry about the gear till you get your tone and chops down. The band is sweet too! This is a much better recording than the last one I watched of you in this space.
