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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
important question for the forum
important question for the forum
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Kingley
969 posts
Mar 04, 2010
4:54 AM
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The problem is Jason is not a blues harmonica player. Modern or otherwise. He is a harmonica musician. The list is of blues harmonica players.
Jason plays multiple styles and draws his influences for his music from many varied sources. He doesn't restrict himself to playing in the blues idiom.
If it were simply a list of harmonica musicians, then Jason would rightfully be in the top 10, along with Howard and Carlos, etc.
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Micha
77 posts
Mar 04, 2010
5:05 AM
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Ok, he is influenced a lot by other music styles/genres. But in my opinion he is putting all those influences in a Blues jacket. I don't think Blues harmonica should be restricted to just the "old school" style.
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kudzurunner
1174 posts
Mar 04, 2010
5:06 AM
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@htownfess: I'll confess that I've never heard Jr. Well's earliest amped-up stuff; or Jerry McCain's rocking stuff (whatever it is you're mentioning), only "Tuff Enough" and a few later things; and the only Jr. Parker stuff I have is "The Best of Junior Parker." I copied his version of "Sweet Home Chicago," harp and vocals, note for note. He's certainly an underappreciated harp player. Your post is terrific, and an education for me. As much listening as I've done, I clearly have more to do!
Thanks everybody for your contributions.
This thread should be static-linked in our index of great threads. It contains a great deal of food for thought, a lot of passion. I'm honestly not sure where it leaves my two Top-10 lists. Many of the players who have been mentioned here are already in my Honorable Mention, obviously. I'm glad to see a spirited defense of the Wolf and Jr. Wells.
Jason Ricci obviously has a lot of fans who would like to see him in the Second-10, and I don't disagree. Then again, I'm a partisan.
Mark Dufresne's name hasn't come up. I've got a terrific CD of his and am quite sure he belongs in the Honorable Mention list.
@nastyolddog: You're quite right, in one sense: Top-10 lists are silly. I'll be the first to agree. They're entirely artificial--why 10? Why not 13, or 5, or 25?--and they force us to make hard choices that are actually unnecessary.
By the same token, Top-10 lists are useful. Again, I'd ask you to imagine a 16-year-old boy, or girl, who stumbles upon this site, in love with the sound of the blues harmonica. Of course we'd all say, "Listen widely! Listen to as many different styles and players as you can!" But teachers--and I'm a teacher--also tend to develop canons: prioritized lists of things that serious students of the instrument absolutely need to know.
I'm sounding like a broken record, but I'll say it once again: I don't know how somebody who wants to learn blues harmonica from the bottom up can possibly ignore Little Walter, or Sonny Terry, or Sonny Boy II. Those three players are massive presences in the world of blues harmonica, in every single respect. And I believe that 100% of the members of this forum would agree. I suspect that we could all agree on another 3-5 names: John Lee Williamson, Big Walter Horton....well, and then who?
You see what I'm getting at. If you're going to steer a young person toward what is essential, begin with what is absolutely, indisputably, inarguable essential. Then add to it. I've spelled out what my personal criteria are right at the top of the All-Time Greats page.
Now what makes the exercise interesting is precisely that there are several non-identical criteria--soulfulness and technical ability, for example, plus "influence"--and we don't necessarily all agree on how to adjudicate them.
But it's worth having the conversation, and worth struggling to articulate the grounds of our own decisions about relative value.
The conversation has the virtue, among other things, of helping us all grow by bringing to light underappreciated virtues of particular players (did Howlin' Wolf really teach Rice Miller how to play? I'd forgotten that.) and specific cuts that we all should be listening to if we want to make fully informed decisions.
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kudzurunner
1175 posts
Mar 04, 2010
5:08 AM
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@Kingley: Jason is a blues harmonica player. If somebody puts in 13 years on the bandstand as a blues harmonica player, they've earned the right to be respected as a blues harmonica player. Have you heard his first (or second?) CD, DOWN AT THE JUKE, recorded more than a decade ago? Your position is unsustainable.
In 1995, Jason was already a good enough blues harmonica player to win the Sonny Boy Blues Society award.
He's being judged here for his already-considerable track record as a blues harmonica player. The three cuts that I've named in earlier posts are all blues songs, sourced deeply in the tradition.
Again, Charlie Musselwhite has, from the beginning of his career, recorded a range of material that ranges far beyond blues--all the way to Brazil. I don't believe you'd honestly suggest that we refuse to consider him a blues harmonica player. Jason is in exactly the same position. He mostly works blues clubs and festivals these days, as does Charlie.
Last Edited by on Mar 04, 2010 5:13 AM
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Kingley
971 posts
Mar 04, 2010
5:19 AM
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Adam - I completely disagree with you.
Jason did indeed start out as a blues harmonica player that much is true. However he has since moved way beyond blues and is now in the position of being one of a handful of people who are purely great harmonica musicians.
He transcends styles and genres to amalgamate them all into a sound that is Jason Ricci not blues, jazz, pop, country, rock, etc.
So by that premise alone he cannot now be classified as simply a blues harmonica player. He is a harmonica musician and I think if you put this to Jason he would agree with me.
As for Charlie. His mainstay has always been blues even though like many other players he has dabbled in other styles. Blues has always been at the forefront of his music.
As for the statement about the festivals and clubs. I'm certain that Jason would love to expand beyond those arenas. It's simply very difficult (as you well know) for someone who is truly original to move more into mainstream musical venues. The diatonic harmonica is known primarily as a blues instrument and that is why these arenas are the mainstay of JNRB gigs.
Also when you judge a musician you have to judge them on their full body of work. You cannot simply ignore certain sections because it doesn't fit into your box. That is simply moving the goalposts to try and win your argument.
You could easily claim that Jason is simply a blues harmonica player based purely on "Down at the the Juke". However to do so would be a huge injustice to a highly talented individual who has a far wider ranging body of work from which to base an opinion on.
Last Edited by on Mar 04, 2010 5:39 AM
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hvyj
175 posts
Mar 04, 2010
5:26 AM
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Rice Miller taught Howlin' Wolf. He was dating HW's sister.
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Nastyolddog
365 posts
Mar 04, 2010
6:12 AM
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Hi Adam 1st im not suckin butt,ive read your reply well 5 times now Man,
WOW,just looking at each word,there Beautful well explained,
yes in a way we are all still the child serching for answers,,,answers we think are simple but in them self complex behond imagination.
I think you could allso get a response Starting a new thread asking us all our top 3 5 or 10..but this one is a doozie very complex.
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Jaybird
139 posts
Mar 04, 2010
7:05 AM
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I think it's time to end the debate, and put WILLIAM CLARKE on the second best 10 list. (and boot Carey Bell)
And while you're at it Adam, please put Duster Bennett on the honorable mention list.
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www.Youtube.com/Jaybird33066
Last Edited by on Mar 04, 2010 7:06 AM
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snakes
477 posts
Mar 04, 2010
8:36 AM
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I suggested Mark DuFresne when the original honorable mention thread came up and was not well received(?!). Mark lives in our area and I've seen him at least 10 times. The guy has chops on the harp not to mention a fantastic voice. We are lucky to have him. Believe it or not the guy has to work as a pharmacists tech. and a substitute school teacher to get by...
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Joch230
7 posts
Mar 04, 2010
9:04 AM
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"Doing that wheedley wheedley Sugar Blue stuff"
Had to look that one up....got the below...
The wheedley-woo is the screaming guitar solo where your self expression is allowed to fly. That this self expression almost invariably consists primarily of frantic arpeggios played in the upper register with such furious intensity that they become a sonic blur detracts nothing from its importance, which is far more about mutually appreciated technical proficiency than musical coherence. The purpose of wheedley-woo is to be thrilling, not necessarily melodically engaging.
Also....to say Jason isn't a Blues player just because he isn't just a blues player is like saying Clapton isn't a blues player since he has many POP type albums.
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alleycatjoe
13 posts
Mar 04, 2010
12:02 PM
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that wheedle wheedly stuff is very similar to guitar shredding
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The Gloth
264 posts
Mar 04, 2010
12:18 PM
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Hey, Jimi Hendrix was a bluesman too.
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alleycatjoe
14 posts
Mar 04, 2010
12:30 PM
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i propose that the list be more oriented to blues schools of originators in the the developement of the blue harp but all great players
i would start with the recorded originators, there were many great harp players who never were recorded a
1st tier blues harp players ( must listen)
rice miller, john lee williamson, little walter, big walter horton, sonny terry, jimmy reed
2nd tier not as stylisticlly independant but all who have created signature styles on the harp ( also must listen)
slim harpo, junior wells , james cotton, noah lewis , hammy nixon , little junior parker , peg leg sam,rhythm willie , dr ross , joe hill lewis, buster brown, howlin wolf, george smith, snooky prior, little sammy davis( check out his chromatic work playing in g on a c chromatic) rev dan smith
third tier ( closer to the above than forth tier
cary bell ,charlie musselwhite , paul butterfield, kim wilson, rick estrin, william clark, paul oscher,al wilson, jerry portnoy, jerry mccain,magic dick, rod piazza,billy branch, steve guyger. paul delay
4th tier
sugar blue , john poppa, howard levy ( when he plays blues, lee oscar, jason ricci, steve baker
all of these players are their own blues stylists and is interesting to see almost chronically to see how this harp blues is developing the fouth tier being the furthest away from the ist. whats interesting is that the 4th tier players have had much greater influence on young players but its time that the young go back to the roots and learn some lessons from what came before them.
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Ev630
128 posts
Mar 04, 2010
1:11 PM
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I propose a list titled, "Top ten guys who get man-love from the kids on this board". Then you could put Jason at the top and no one would be offended.
Hello? Hello? Is this mic on? Don't forget to tip your waitress.
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Miles Dewar
444 posts
Mar 04, 2010
3:50 PM
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I have to vote Nat in on this one. His sound is way too heavy NOT to have up there. Great harp... Thought some may say it's not as inventive or modern. The fact is, it's incredible. His singing is good too.
Nat Riddles is the man.
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Tryharp
294 posts
Mar 05, 2010
4:12 AM
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Looking through the discussion, I set about triying to determine if Jason should be on the list IMO.
The first thing that struck me is that its actually Adams list, he has set the criteria by which greatness is measured IHO( and I must say hes probably pretty right based on his skill and experience ), nonetheless its his list. Other people may measure greatness in very different ways.
So accepting that its Adams greats we are ranking, essentially confirming whether he has assessed the player against his own criteria correctly, I set out to do this.
Looking at the criteria, I'm wondering whether each element is to be weighted equally, say if we were to give them a score out of ten.
As an example:
Miles has thrown up Nat Riddles - hes on my top ten, cause I really like the way he plays, and he meets MY criteria. I doubt he would get on most other top 10/20 of players. Would he get on Adams? If weighted equally then MO as follows:
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Tryharp
295 posts
Mar 05, 2010
4:16 AM
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ORIGINALITY - 7/10 ( I think Ive marked this low, in the THREE SECOND test, he is immediately recognisable to those that have listened to his playing. )
INFLUENCE - 6/10 ( his main influence would be Adam and implicitly all of us, i suspect this rating will climb in time, as AG lessons will be standard issue for any future blues player without doubt )
TECHNICAL MASTERY - 8.5 /10 very good ( vibrato to die for, power in reserve etc ( actually his vibrato is up there with Wolfs, and Adams )
SOULFULNESS - 8.5/10 hes got it, one of the best, his harp bleeds in St James Infirmary, who else can do that?
RECORDED EVIDENCE - 10/10 How do you rate this out of ten, it doesnt fit with the other personal capability criteria?? If theres more records do you get a higher score??
Its there or not??
Its there, all capture on Adams recorder - El Cafe St. His recordings with Larry Johnson ( that Ive heard ) are pretty tame ( and insipid ) compared to that.
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Tryharp
296 posts
Mar 05, 2010
4:17 AM
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Thats a score of 40 out of 50. If you really sat down and rated the players out of fifty, how would they compare, I'm not sure, I havent done it.
Regardless of criteria, I think the players on Adams top 20 are basically indisputable on anyones list, except maybe 2 positions. So in some respects the criteria is fairly irrelevant.
Tryharp
(sorry for the three posts, but at the moment if I try to embed something or do a longish post my computer just times out, its pissing me right off actully)
Last Edited by on Mar 05, 2010 4:18 AM
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kudzurunner
1178 posts
Mar 05, 2010
4:47 AM
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@Kingley: You and I both agree on one point: Jason is a fantastic musician, and his range currently encompasses more than blues. I can't help but feel, though, that your insistence on this point, in the face of the evidence I've offered--he came up in the blues scene, he paid his dues in Junior Kimbrough's juke, he's won awards as a blues performer (and has been nominated in the past several years for awards as a blues performer, including this year's Blues Music Award), he's played in numerous blues bands (including The Nuckelbusters and Big Al and the Heavyweights), he's released a handful of albums filled with blues tracks (including two of the exceptional tracks I invoked), the great preponderance of his current gigs are in blues clubs (one of which, Rooster's Blues House, is where, just last year, I shot the video of the blues classic "Mellow Down Easy" that I invoked above) and blues festivals and the occasional blues cruise...
To insist in the face of all that evidence that Jason isn't primarily a blues harmonica player and doesn't even deserve consideration as part of an evolving history of blues harmonica playing strikes me as....well, disingenuous. I've spoken at length with Jason about his relationship with the blues scene and his orientation towards his own instrument. Like many creative blues musicians--including Corey Harris, Taj Mahal, Bonnie Raitt, and Keb' Mo'--his interests leads him to pursue avenues outside the blues. But I'd be willing to bet that he doesn't object, on principle, to being considered a blues harmonica player. :)
I think that Bonnie Raitt is one of the all-time great blues singers, BTW. I don't care how much rock and pop she's gone on to record. Any white girl who intends to sing blues and thinks she can ignore Bonnie Raitt as somehow not part of the core tradition is making a huge mistake. Would you disagree? Would you insist on protecting Raitt from the "injustice" of being considered in that light, as you're insisting on protecting Jason from the injustice of being shoehorned into the blues harmonica bag?
Although Chris Michalek, John Popper, P.T. Gazell, and Brendan Power can all play remarkable blues, it would plainly be an injustice--a category dis-fit, if you will--to try and shoehorn them into the category "blues harmonica player." Next to that set of players, Jason's long list of blues harmonica bona fides makes it clear where he deserves to be considered.
Carlos del Junco is a slightly different question; he works a different set of venues than Jason, his approach has always been somewhat more in the Howard Levy-ish jazz direction. Still, his first album was called BLUES and one of his recent albums was called BLUES MONGREL. A case can clearly be made for him as somebody whose playing deserves to be considered part of an evolving blues harmonica tradition.
The case for Jason as part of that tradition--for all the reasons I've listed above--is clearly stronger than the case for Carlos. The fact that Jason has started to introduce a wider range of material over the past several years (including "Broken Toy"), and the fact that his singing style is clearly a mixture of punk and blues with other things thrown in, is irrelevant to the question under consideration.
Last Edited by on Mar 05, 2010 4:55 AM
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Kingley
977 posts
Mar 05, 2010
5:11 AM
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"But I'd be willing to bet that he doesn't object, on principle, to being considered a blues harmonica player. :)"
Adam - I have no doubt that, that is true and probably also true of Carlos Del Junco.
However for me both of them have made moves to move more and more away from the blues arena and entered into playing their own unique style of music which defies classification by genre. That is why I personally would never class them as blues harmonica players. In my opinion they have evolved to another place all together.
Both of them can obviously play blues in their sleep. That doesn't mean to me that that deserve inclusion on a "blues" list. If the list was as I have stated before "harmonica musician" then both Jason and Carlos would easily be in any top ten. I'm including Carlos in this purely because you brought his name up.
You and I will never agree on this point because we come at it from different angles. I look at the whole body of their work and the direction they are going into. You it seems just ignore the rest and take just their blues material to make it fit into your box. Which whilst there is nothing wrong with that, to me it's doing them an injustice. Because as I have said I believe wholeheartedly that both of them have transcended being simply blues harmonica players.
I guess we will just have to agree to differ on this one.
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Tryharp
297 posts
Mar 05, 2010
5:16 AM
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Stepping out of Adams criteria I know, but in 50 years time will Jason be remembered as a blues harmonica player, or at all. Everyone else on the list will be. The others generally have an advantage of playing in an era when blues was "the" popular music
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Kingley
978 posts
Mar 05, 2010
5:21 AM
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"Needless to say, the great Howard Levy and Stevie Wonder belong on any Top-10 all-time list of harmonica greats, but I believe it misrepresents and considerably diminishes their talents to frame them as blues harmonica players alone. To consign them to an "honorable mention" slot would be even worse."
Adam's paragraph from the "all-time harp greats" page describes my feelings on the matter perfectly. That is exactly the way I feel about Jason and Carlos.
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kudzurunner
1179 posts
Mar 05, 2010
5:24 AM
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Kingley: Anybody who reads my most recent post above and then reads the way you've characterized my position is surely shaking their head. In this case, I'm the one who is looking at the whole body of Jason's work, a fifteen year span of it, and you're the one who is restricting your view to where he is right now in an effort to keep him out of the blues harmonica "box." I have no idea where he's going--nor do you--but I do know where he's been. That's what this thread is about: What a particular blues harmonica player has actually achieved.
Or at least that's how I see it. I promise not to edit any of my posts above and will trust you not to do the same. Members of this forum may judge for themselves.
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Kingley
979 posts
Mar 05, 2010
5:32 AM
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Well like I said Adam "I guess we will just have to agree to differ on this one."
At the end of the day it's all subjective and personal opinion. It would be a dull and dreary world if we all agreed all of the time.
The one thing of which I'm certain we do both agree on, is that Jason is one hell of a harmonica player who is breaking new ground and influencing new generations of a harmonica players.
Edit - to adjust spelling
Last Edited by on Mar 05, 2010 5:33 AM
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Tryharp
298 posts
Mar 05, 2010
5:35 AM
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Sorry to interupt your discussion guys, but I also think if Jason was born back in the day, he would have cut all their heads, except for LW, who would have carved him up.
Edit: Also adjusting spelling. ( things are getting bad when we have to spell this out )
Last Edited by on Mar 05, 2010 5:38 AM
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The Gloth
269 posts
Mar 05, 2010
5:41 AM
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I am on Adam's side for this one. I see Jason as a blues player that widened his horizons, and IMO even when he plays a non-blues tune, his playing approach is one of a bluesman. I'm talking about his sound, the energy of his playing... a jazz harmonicist doesn't play that way.
I have a suggestion for a bilateral agreement : Kingley could agree that Jason belongs to a list of great blues harp players, and in return Adam puts Alan Wilson on his "honorable mention" list. Wouldn't it be neat ?
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(just kidding of course)
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Tryharp
299 posts
Mar 05, 2010
5:45 AM
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It would be neat, good call Gloth!
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The Gloth
273 posts
Mar 05, 2010
10:45 AM
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Nah... Neil Young is the real thing.
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Big Nancy
29 posts
Mar 05, 2010
9:58 PM
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Kudz... sorry for taking this long to get back to you.... and to all who have to endure my redirect on authenticity and Carey Bell.
I did not base my analysis on race... but rather on culture. Culture can and does transcend race. For instance... Ford and Chevy are still making cars in America and they are American cars for sure. But for those of us who have been lying around this planet for 50+ these cars lack the basic essence of what we knew to be American Cars. They lack the shape, contour and feeling that Great American artistry once provoked. We don't know what racial profile designed the 55 Chevy... we just know that a lot of Americans love it!
The same thing can be said of some blues players. It is just my opinion the Carey was one of those guys who captured what strikes me as real southern to the city blues sound. And others, who have actually made that journey, might agree.
I always look at this as "if I were born and raised in blues country... would this music make me shake a hip". This is the way I measure all things cultural... and most cultures are multi-racial.
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Jaybird
154 posts
Mar 06, 2010
7:34 AM
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If anyone is unfamilar with WIILIAM CLARKE, Here is the three tunes I suggested...
Blowin The Family Jewels:
Chasin The Gator:
Must Be Jelly:
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www.Youtube.com/Jaybird33066
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Joch230
8 posts
Mar 06, 2010
12:02 PM
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Thanks. I enjoyed the sound clips. The youtube item didn't come across on my PC though.
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