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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! > Crazy feedback (amp or mic?)
Crazy feedback (amp or mic?)
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Nagual
1 post
May 26, 2020
2:46 PM
Hi guys,

I'm glad a place like this exists, where one can ask such questions, especially given that I don't know anybody in person who plays harmonica! Heh.

So, here's my problem. I've got a Superlux D112/C mic, which works really well (into the PA, Pignose, etc)--except when I plug it into my Blackstar HT-1R amp. This Blackstar is a 1 watt tube amplifier. When I do this, I get crazy feedback, unless I'm playing very quietly (too quiet for a rehearsal or small venue anyways).

I'd really love to have a tiny tube amp I can use, so my question is, which one is most likely to be the problem?:

The amp is no good for harmonica, or my mic is no good for the amp?

I was looking into either getting a Shure 520 DX (which I should perhaps get anyways, given that I'm recording often in the studio), or get a different tube amp (perhaps the Vox AC4TV, which is available on my local eBay (Berlin)).

Thanks a lot in advance. I've got no one to talk about these things, so I'd really appreciate your help.

As a side remark, I've got a Blues Harp Break (from Lone Wolf), which doesn't make a difference feedback-wise with the amp.

Cheers!
jbone
3216 posts
May 26, 2020
5:04 PM
I'm not an expert in that mic and amp at all but I think you have an impedance mismatch. High impedance is a good with tube amps while low is better for solid state equipment.
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SuperBee
6651 posts
May 26, 2020
5:48 PM
I don't know the amp but there is nothing very remarkable about the mic. its just a hiz dynamic in a bullet shell. I believe its marketed under a few different names.
so i'd be looking at the amp and whats going on with that. i don't know it so i'll have to look it up
SuperBee
6652 posts
May 26, 2020
6:05 PM
yeah ok, i see it has a solid state phase inverter and a both a valve preamp and a solid state gain stage.

i don't think theres much you can do about the tubes

The question i see begging is what are you doing re the gain adjustment?
if it was mine id be running the gain on the low side and compensate with the volume

for example, with my hybrid amp which has separate gain/volume, i generally do not turn the gain up much past 9 oclock if im in a position to have the amp as loud as i want. mainly i run gain at around 9 oclock (i think that is calibrated as "3" on the dial) and the volume up around 3 oclock (which is like 7-8 in the calibrated scale)

if i want it to sound more broken up at lower volume i can turn the gain up and volume down, but it never sounds quite as good that way

you may already be running the gain low though, so if thats the case im probably out of ideas apart from the relative position of mic to amp when youre using it.

fwiw, when i had a harp break pedal i found it definitely lowered the feedback threshhold but usually peoplke want this sort of pedal to induce break up when they are unable to drive the amp hard enough to get natural distortion, or when the amp is designed to be clean and only delivers harsh unpleasing distortion

Last Edited by SuperBee on May 26, 2020 6:06 PM
Martin
1653 posts
May 26, 2020
6:08 PM
If you go with the Superlux through the HB then straight to the PA, doesn´t that make it better?
I have a Superlux but I rarely use it, ´cause I don´t like those mics (they give me feedback!), but when I use it through a, say, Joyo AS tp PA, it performs adequately -- up to a (volume) point.
Nagual
2 posts
May 27, 2020
6:35 AM
Thanks a lot for your replies!

@jbone That makes sense. It was an intuition of mine but I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to the technical aspects, so it's good to have second opinions.

@SuperBee Thanks for the detail! I do keep the gain very low, because of the feedback. When I play live, and I seldom do with this amp because of this, I always end up cranking the volume up very high and the gain as low as possible in order not to get any feedback.

I'm also a guitar player and with my electric this amp gives me no troubles. With the harp it's a demon I have to fight, every single time. As you mention, I always have to manage its position in relation to mine, as well. So it's never been a joy to use, really. That's why I thought maybe a different mic might help, given that I'm currently using such a cheap mic and it's easier to replace than the amp.

@Martin That's worked quite well in the past, but then again, when I do that, the amp volume is usually quite low. I haven't actually tried that with the volume high enough so that it'd be feeding back by itself.

------------------

I guess I might just end up getting a Shure mic first, given that it's something I should really have anyways, and then see what happens. If this persists, I'll just get a friendlier amp.

I try to stay away from this side of music, when it gets so technical and problematic, but it seems there's no escape! :)
jbone
3217 posts
May 27, 2020
8:09 AM
Remember this Nagual, most amps are designed with different instruments in mind, and the frequency of a harp mic and a guitar pickup can be very different. These days there are several amp builders who are focused on harp mic compatability. I don't know if you'd have access- or cash- to avail yourself of one of them.
Perhaps your better bet would be a different mic in the tube amp and maybe a pedal or two designed to limit feedback. Or possibly an amp modeler like the RP class with harp patches made by Richard Hunter.

When it comes down to it for me, I can run a vocal mic into the 3rd or 4th channel of our small p.a. and use onboard effects on that channel and it works pretty well. A lot of what we do is actually sans amplification though which is much simpler!

I play in a duo and we keep our volume low most of the time. We each have a 12w tube amp, she plugs guitar into hers and I put my harp mic in the other. I have one pre amp tube changed out to gut the gain by a bit and as I said we keep volume low anyway.

I fought the same battle you describe for years. Not only did I rarely win, I blew out a lot of harp reeds due to pushing too much air so I could be heard. And hear myself! I played with bands loud enough to contribute to my hearing loss (partial). I tried a lot of amps and always a hot Green Bullet from the 70's. Later I began working with different mics and I did hit on a good combo, a JT#) type mic with a good vintage crystal element into a 4x10 speaker replica Fender '59 Bassman. 40 watts of usable volume! It was a rush but came with consequences. Having a good setup for excellent volume and tone did not ease the stage volume, I just got to match it. Hence my hearing was still suffering. That's a good part of why I opted for the duo idea.

So you get the idea here, there are many routes you can take to get the volume you want.
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agarner
81 posts
May 27, 2020
8:30 AM
Its probably a bit of both. But I would recommend getting a volume control if your mic doesn't have one. Greg Heumann makes then and they helped my playing considerably.

I have played through many amps and it is always nice to have the option to kill the microphone or find the sweet spot between amp volume and mic volume.

I also use a 7 band EQ and cut the highs. Definitely gives me control of my sound.
A-Static Cal
8 posts
May 27, 2020
9:11 AM
What agarner said. A volume control is your friend. Position in relation to your amp is another factor to keep in mind. Also, I use an AC4TV for harp. If you go that route, a tube swap worked wonders. Being able to switch the wattage level helps also. 1/4 and 4 watts sound best on mine. 1 watt, not so much. At least to my ears. Enjoy!
LFLISBOA
76 posts
May 27, 2020
9:26 AM
I don't know this amp, but I'd recommend turn the gain, EQ and reverb to zero, and increase EQ a little bit until you get feedback. Then turn down EQ a little bit and increase gain, until you'll find the ballance of EQ, gain and reverb. On website, it say it has 2 channels, and I's start with the clean channel. If you'd work with overdrive channel, turn you mic volume by 1/2. Hope this help a litte
indigo
596 posts
May 27, 2020
10:55 PM
I think that most of us have been through this problem at some stage.
I have tried the whole gamut of gear,volume controls, pedals tube swaps etc etc.
I have finally(to me anyway) found a solution.An equaliser!
I use a Bose GE7.No other pedals other than sometimes a L/W delay set at minimum.
No Amp just straight into the PA.
Feedback is usually at a frequency that can vary with the room and/or equipment used.
With a good EQ pedal you can literally "dial out" that frequency.
The simplicity is appealing too.
Walk into a jam situation: Mike into the EQ into the PA done.
Even better: i use a wireless mike into the pedal and a cable into the PA.Everything fits into a small bag.
Modern PA's are very versatile and after all they are the loudest amp in the room...
Do they sound as good as well set up Tube amp?No.
But if you are constantly fighting feedback (and likely pissing off the other guys) a bit of compromise between the sound you can get at home and the stage version is maybe worth it.
SuperBee
6654 posts
May 28, 2020
12:36 AM
I really doubt the Shure 520DX will have much of an impact on the situation.
I searched for previous threads discussing the amp and found very little; nothing of consequence.
I'm really surprised the gain doesn't bring it under control. maybe a VC on the mic will do it but i thought the superlux was already fitted with a level control

i'm sure there are numerous non personal small tube amp options, but since "I'd really love to have a tiny tube amp I can use" is part of the OP, i feel like that is probably integral to a satisfactory outcome.

it could be that the Blackstar is just a highly unsuitable amp for harp, but i find it difficult to know why that would be so. you mentioned the Vox AC4 though as an alternative, adn i know there are plenty of example of that unit being used succesfully
Nagual
3 posts
May 28, 2020
4:07 AM
@jbone: Thanks again. What you're saying seems reasonable enough. I do plan on getting a proper harmonica amp at some point (from Lone Wolf, hopefully). It's a shame that now also my Pignose is defective, so I don't have my small-gig/busking amp either. Guess I'll get myself a Vox Mini5 in the meantime, so I've got a small amp that sounds and works reasonably well.

@agarner: My mic does have a volume control. I'll try messing a bit more with the EQ, see if it makes a difference.

@A-Static Cal: That's very good to know! That amp just looks so cool. Good to know it also sounds good with the harp. I might end up selling my Blackstar and getting that Vox, until I can afford a proper harp amp.

@LFLISBOA: Will definitely try this out too.

@indigo: Thanks. This is a good enough solution. I often plug into the Harp Break and straight into the PA. Can't deny that it sounds pretty good. That pedal gives the harp a pretty well rounded sound, adding some lower end and distortion.

@SuperBee: Could be. The Blackstar seems to have a very particular kind of sound as well, which might simply not work well with harps. And good to know about the mic. It crossed my mind too, that it might not make a difference, given that the Shure 520DX is extremely similar to the Superlux (or, should I say, the other way round). Btw, the gain know does help, it's just that if I want to stop the feedback, I have to turn it down so low that the amp is too quiet for rehearsing or small venues. It's only loud enough to play by myself in the living room. Whereas if I plug my electric guitar in, it goes super loud. Definitely loud enough for a small venue and more.

Cheers guys. I'll post an update if I find a good solution.

Last Edited by Nagual on May 28, 2020 4:51 AM
Evets
4 posts
May 28, 2020
9:39 AM
@Nagual

My beginners 2 cents:
You might consider spending $16.95 for a one month subscription to David Barrett's Blues Harmonica at https://www.bluesharmonica.com.

David devotes one entire section to equipment reviews - both amps and mics - for use with the harp. He goes into great detail about what a harpist is looking for, and how well each piece meets the various requirements.
(I had no idea that "we" are looking for different sounds for home practice, for studio, and for small venue.)
I believe that you could glean more than enough information to offset the cost of a one month subscription.
Dai
33 posts
Jun 02, 2020
5:34 AM
I know nothing of amplified harp but here is video from Rob Paparozzi talking about high impedance and low impedance mics and using a converter into the amp.

The video is mainly about the new Xvive U3 system he has and all the impedance stuff is thrown in there.

Not sure if this helps or not.

Raven
180 posts
Jun 02, 2020
6:27 PM
Welcome to the forum, Nagual!


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