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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
fast large one
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SuperBee
6583 posts
Apr 16, 2020
4:03 AM
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ive been using this Little Walter tune as a way of familiarising myself with the chromatic.
i finally got around to making a practice backing track so now i can play and hear my weaknesses without having Little Walter on hand to cover for me, as he has been all this time until now as i play along with the original recording.
This tune was recorded in 53 iirc, and was one of the first things, maybe the first, LW recorded on the chromatic at a session under his own name. he may have recorded on chromatic with Muddy Waters prior to this session (I just want to make love to you?).
i'm writing a lot, maybe you'll get bored and go to sleep before you play my recording?
this is very basic recording of me playing my old standard CX12 along with the JimiLeeBand Groovetrax "Jump Swing in C" {which i shifted to D}. I'm just playing in free air, using the old imac built in microphone and garageband without any effects or polish. Theres very little originality here, its jsut copying plus a reprise of the head to make it fit the BT.
My aim was really to catch the phrasing. sharing here because i mentioned it on Wheel's thread back in December and thought i had better follow through.
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Prento
68 posts
Apr 16, 2020
4:39 AM
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I really enjoyed that Dave. Great tone. LW’s own recordings seemed to have more of a swing than the stuff he did with Muddy.
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jbone
3193 posts
Apr 16, 2020
6:16 AM
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Good job man!
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Music and travel destroy prejudice.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1109912442677135/?ref=bookmarks
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LFLISBOA
70 posts
Apr 16, 2020
12:47 PM
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Good job, but if you want to get familiar with chrom, I wouldn't start with LW. I'd go for Junior Wells, James Cotton or even Mojo Bufford, because of their simpler phrasing. Most of them make use of tongue block and octaves for blues chromatic, and that's something you'd have in mind. You may open your embouchure for chromatic, and you may feel a little bit tired, but you'll get used to. Good job again, and good luck on your studies.
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wheel
673 posts
Apr 16, 2020
12:51 PM
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I'm really curious, but I can't download it :( Could you please share it somewhere else?
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Konstantin Kolesnichenko(Ukraine)
http://kolesnichenko-harmonica.com/
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dougharps
2094 posts
Apr 16, 2020
1:26 PM
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Before learning chromatic styles from records, I played C chromatic melodies by ear using single note pursed lip style in what I later learned were 1st in C, 2nd in G, 3rd in D, and 4th in A (also button IN playing 8th in Db, 9th in Ab, 10th in Eb, and 11th in Bb). I did this [EDIT: intermittently) for about 25 years.
When I learned cross harp diatonic my 2nd in G and 9th in Ab chromatic playing became seldom used due to confusion as I learned diatonic "Richter" note patterns instead of chromatic "solo" tuning. I continued to play the other positions on chromatic, just not those very often.
All my life I have lived a lot closer to Chicago than the West Coast, but William Clarke's chromatic style is why I learned to play octaves on chromatic in the '90s.
After I heard William Clarke (which led me to discover George Smith, as well as Rick Estrin and Rod Piazza) playing jump blues style West Coast chromatic I HAD to learn that style. Jump style got me working on 3rd position (and 10th) playing with octaves and fat open chords. Later I applied that octave and chord approach to slower more traditional blues.
After learning that chromatic style, I added octaves to my playing approach on diatonic, too.
Carey Bell is a good player to hear play chromatic.
LFLISBOA listed other good players for Chicago style above. Paul DeLay had a unique approach that is cool.
I borrowed bits and pieces I liked from all I heard, but never learned note for note solos as many choose to do.
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Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Apr 16, 2020 8:44 PM
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SuperBee
6586 posts
Apr 16, 2020
7:29 PM
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Prento, thanks for listening and commenting. I agree Little Walter's approach to music was markedly different to Muddy Water's, which possibly reflects the differences in their backgrounds to some extent. Walter was much younger and had a much different upbringing than Muddy.
Thanks Jbone, I appreciate you taking the time and your kind comment.
LFLISBOA, thank you also for the kind evaluation and also the suggestions. Its true this song was a way to become familiar with playing the chromatic, but i suppose the way i've expressed that is not quite the full story. This was the bass players suggestion to play this song, and i wanted to show him goodwill as well as play something on chromatic. i did see this as a relatively challenging piece and its been a good experience but you are no doubt correct that there are more instructive examples to explore. it may not be obvious but i am 100% tongue blocking this piece. i am not playing octaves, although in practice i am doing more of that and my next study will definitely incorporate octave splits.
I study best when i have a project, and i haven't settled on that yet.
Wheel, I'll definitely try to get this available to you. recently I was playing your recording Tenderly while i was making dinner, and i remembered we had a small exchange on the topic of FLO in December last year, in which i said i would make an effort to record my playing.
Having remembered, I felt slack as a "gunner" who had not followed through, so i found a track and recorded.
i'm just trying my best to mimic Little Walter and no doubt still falling well-short, but still trying to hear where those shortcomings are and by doing so coming to understand what is required in order to get there, what aspects of playing the instrument make a difference. Some subtleties (and not-so-subtleties) elude me, some i can achieve but not fully consistently, some need refinement, but this is how i think i improve.
i do play this with the band and honestly when i started including it in the set i was dubious about its value, but gradually i've noticed the applause has been growing. Everyone in the band and the band as a unit has had to step up to pull this off. This recording of course is just me and a non-specific Backing Track.
Quite a few accomplished players have spoken to me about studying songs and learning to play things in so called "note for note" style. There is really so much more to it than the notes!, but that's the common expression
Doug, thank you for sharing your story and observations about the chromatic.
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jbone
3195 posts
Apr 16, 2020
8:11 PM
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I meant to mention a couple of my big influences on chromatic as well. Carey Bell and William Clarke.
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Music and travel destroy prejudice.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1109912442677135/?ref=bookmarks
Reverbnation
Facebook
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Gabriel.Harmonic
5 posts
Apr 16, 2020
8:35 PM
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Hi,
I could not open the file either but, in general, I have a couple areas of feedback and observation. A bit of context: Have played harp 45 years, was full-time pro by 20 in SoCal. I had a 7 piece Swing Dance Band for 10 years and the Swing Dance Society would hire us, they are picky on swing! I partly learned by taking CDs (including Little Walter's) to the instructors and plaing them material for feedback on what was "swingin"....Off The Wall, One Chance With You, Fast Boogie, etc. they love. (Bass, Drums, Piano, Guitar, Female Vocals, Sound Man on every gig, Myself on Harp and either 1 or sometimes 2 horns playing lines with me). We did play Blues Festivals also and R&B, Funk, etc. but, "Large Fast One" is about swing. I also have several of the pre-war wood case Hohner 64's (as you see Little Walter with in photos) that were customized by Dick Gardner, mention that since it's part of the tone equation. If you count triplets, it's the offbeat of the last triplet, just before "the 1" that when accented gives music that "lift"/"swing". The difference between "groove or die" type thing. The horn lines and arrangement of "Jump Jive n' Wail" is a good example. Anyway, with Little Walter and this song (I have spent my time with it too!) it's mostly his timing.
The comparisons here about Little Walter and Muddy Waters styles, swing, etc. The Drummer: Fred Below!!!! was a schooled Jazz & Swing Drummer on so many of Walter's swinging grooves, he gave Walter the platform to fly over. This song really shows that.
I have sat-in a couple times with Jimmie Lee in Austin! Just moved to San Diego though.
Hope this can help some.
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SuperBee
6588 posts
Apr 16, 2020
8:51 PM
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Thanks Gabriel. i took lessons from Jimi Lee for a couple years 12/13
i wonder why that file wont open for some people. have struck this before occasionally
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Gabriel.Harmonic
6 posts
Apr 16, 2020
8:56 PM
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p.s. I do believe there is value in "going in deep" really studying a piece of music, to get inside it. Learn every little nuance. I spent some years at 4 hrs. per day on Charlie McCoy and later 3 hrs. per day with Little Walter but, also non Harp players, Kenny G melodies (don't laugh), etc. Learning "Juke" or even a seemingly simple intro "One Chance with You" (it swings and cool timing) in-depth is a journey. You can't always "get there" to hang with Maceo Parker but, if you try some will start coming out in your playing without thinking about it. I watch drummer videos from Tower of Power, etc. they are swinging!......to help get free of the downbeat I call it. Hard for me since I stared in Bluegrass Bands. Good time for quarantine wood-shedding, hope all are well.
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SuperBee
6589 posts
Apr 17, 2020
12:20 AM
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How about this i wonder:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Z4JOoZ7u5dT3_xHWpOFxS5Bu1OzIsHUo/view?usp=sharing
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Gabriel.Harmonic
7 posts
Apr 17, 2020
1:23 AM
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I was able to download that and play on Google Play Manager or whatever it's called. First, above any other feedback that you asked for......very cool, sounds great! I have not spent that much time with this song but, If I had it down as well as you do, these are few things I believe may be much of the difference, besides of course we are not Little Walter!
1. If you listen to "Off the Wall" and then the Alternate take (or Juke or anything you can hear two takes on), it's obvious Little Walter, as most Jazz players, just had a basic "head" on these tunes, or a couple little themes and then he is improvising. I believe that lends itself to a certain feeling that is hard to replicate when we are trying to "copy" or get inside what he did, how he shaped the notes, etc. If you were improving it may help "I loosen up down inside, my feet begin to fly!"
2. CX-12: I have owned a couple and one was a 16 hole CX, got it from Damien Masterson, Brendon Power had cut two CX12 bodies and seamed/fused them together into a 16 hole. If you have ever played the old wood comb 280's (a tuned good one) they have a certain "back pressure" to them, whereas the CX-12 almost has no "resistance" and almost plays "too easy". Little Walter, although not playing "hard" it really able to "whip it" when he swoops out the main riff. I believe you did fantastic given a CX-12. I have heard guitar players talking about Stratocasters that way. In a way they are hard to play, always resisting you, that you really have to "work" to play them, to pull out the tones but, when you master them they are like no other.
3. Otherwise, I would say if you were in the same room, with a vintage 280, with their mics/tape, etc. you would be feeling better about how good you are sounding. I remember at times, hearing myself on the radio, or an LP album (I was only 19) or later recordings, comparing myself (tone) with Charlie McCoy. I had met him, seen him up close with the Old Standbys, NOT moving his head side to side at all, when flying through those runs, moving his jaw only side-to-side, doing ALL his vibrato with his hand on/off the air cup....and hours of practice, still "why does my tone not sound closer". 30 years later, in a studio on a session the engineer put me on this 1940's AKG C12 tube mic (Nat King Cole's vocals were done on them and they sell for about $15,000. When I heard the playback.....there it was, "that tone" of natural, warm and clear tone. It's not all equipment, Charlie McCoy sounded exactly like his records, on the PA mic Shure 585 (or 565) this was '75 but still......I believe recording condition would have you much closer!
Those are things I hear, that are more of the gap than any of your being short on nailing it!
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SuperBee
6591 posts
Apr 17, 2020
4:17 AM
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Thank you, Gabriel, I really appreciate your comments.
I do have a couple of the old straight tuned wood bodied 64s, but they both need repairs. One of them is a very good prospect I believe, the other is more worn but I think also quite restorable. I was planning to restore these myself but my repairs are proceeding at glacial pace so I might have to send them to Tony Peri in Sydney if I want to see them in use this year.
Otherwise I have also just picked up a quite nice modern super 64.
One of my old 64s is actually a Chromonika III but I believe it’s the exact same unit just with a different name stamped on the cover.
I take your point about improvisation vs remembering.
After a couple or 3 years of studying in this way I’ve become fairly comfortable with transcribing what I’m hearing, and I know it’s helped my game, but I’m still not satisfied that I have an effective approach to lift my improvisation game. I’m better than I was for sure, but I think I need a better strategy. It may be just a question of lifting my work rate
Last Edited by SuperBee on Apr 17, 2020 7:43 AM
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Gabriel.Harmonic
8 posts
Apr 17, 2020
12:11 PM
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Yes, Chromonika III is exact same, just sold in Germany. I cannot work on harps, most of what I learned about these came from Dick Gardner restoring, tuning, about 15 Chros I have had. He even tuned up a "Mickey Mouse Ears" Marine Band for me one time!
Paul Delay played the original Super 64.
What has helped me (and I am not any "better" at all that what you sound like technically) is playing along, picking up what I can from listening to horn players. Check out Dave Koz "Sax Man" it's in D and playing the theme riff with octaves is cool/fun. Used to do it in my last band, doubling with a Tenor Sax, it always got a great audience response too. Robben Ford on Guitar, Chester Thompson (Tower of Power) on organ, Maceo Parker on Alto....some good ideas for different phrasing/timing/groove right there. Outside of what you may hear the harp players doing on Chromatic.
How about this- you do take #3 on Large Fast One, only play the opening line as LW did, then go for it on your own!
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wheel
674 posts
Apr 17, 2020
12:59 PM
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SuperBee, this link works for me! Thank you. I remember that discussion :) I think you did a great job, with proper amplification it will sound very close to original! Congrats!
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Konstantin Kolesnichenko(Ukraine)
http://kolesnichenko-harmonica.com/
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mr_so&so
1090 posts
Apr 18, 2020
7:28 AM
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This is a great topic, thanks SuperBee. I took up chrome only a few years ago so this discussion is most helpful. Gabriel, your long experience and insights are invaluable. DougHarps, I've followed your great posts on "that other" forum and will continue here. I'm very interested in your multi-keyed chromes approach and limited "positions" (which to me remains a valuable concept since multiple-keyed chromes exist). SuperBee, your learning process, with its intelligent analytical approach, is a great contribution to this forum. Wheel, you continue to inspire through your talent and sharing. Thank you all!
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BnT
259 posts
Apr 18, 2020
3:52 PM
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Great post and so much knowledge. The one name I didn't see relative to Little Walter's swing was Mr. Robert Lockwood Jr.
Mr. Lockwood was famous for saying, "I'm a jazz guitarist who plays blues." His riffs and comping style was pretty unique in Chicago blues.
And since Luther Tucker was his protege from age 15, Tucker learned to play the bass parts, graduated to the rhythm parts, and when he mastered rhythm, Lockwood let him play leads and he went back to playing rhythm. So Tucker took the swing Lockwood taught and stayed with Walter almost 8 years. And as someone noted, Below was a schooled drummer, not a guy who picked up sticks and banged out the time. Add that to Walter's own affinity for jazz and look what you got.
Why didn't Muddy have the same swing?Different background and sources are part but also his vision of music. Imagine a helix. The bass line is the (vertical) axis. The two guitars, Jimmy Rogers and Blue Smitty were like helixes that wove around the bass line. But Smitty stopped playing and Jimmy said it took about two years to find another guitarist that could execute Muddy's vision of guitars weaving... ultimately a guitar and harmonica weaving. At least that's what I was told.
BnT
www.BluesWithAFeelin.com
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SuperBee
6593 posts
Apr 18, 2020
7:48 PM
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Wheel, I’m glad you can access it now, and thanks for your comments. I’m grateful for your ‘variations’ video, for providing a nudge. I am prone to avoid recording but I know it really helps.
Hi mr_so&so, i appreciate you. I agree it’s a privilege to have the members of this forum participate.
Speaking of which, thanks for those insights BnT. Living at the end of the line as I do, I feel enormously fortunate to have seen Robert Lockwood play live in my local pub, around ‘88. I did not know about that relationship with Luther Tucker.
I’ve just been listening to Rod Piazza talking with Dennis Gruenling, mainly about his approach to the chromatic and his observations and experiences with George Smith. I’d heard some of that before but Rod spent 2 hours online and it was interesting. Asked about what he’d learned from Little Walter and George Smith, Rod spoke about Little Walter’s creativity and inspiration, and highlited George Smith’s presence and making everything he played, count, regardless of simplicity or complexity. I forget whether it was DG or RP making the point that GS never went astray, always seemed to know exactly what he wanted to say and always played that.
Another thing I noted was DG telling Rod that he often wished that Rod would keep playing but Rod said he thought this was a real trap for a lot of harp players, to keep playing when they’ve already said everything they have.
What else? Oh, he talked about the difference between playing a 64 and playing the 12 holes, which was about the need to ‘massage’ the air when playing the 64. He felt you could ‘manhandle’ a 12 hole more, but the 64 requires a more sensitive approach to still be able to play with a certain ‘attack’ and not choke it out.
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Gabriel.Harmonic
23 posts
Apr 27, 2020
9:26 AM
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Hi SuperBee,
Earlier in this thread I observed, as a possibility, in your looking to "mimic Little Walter" and what may get you closer, that a CX-12 and vintage wood-comb 64 had inherent tone differences. That may be at least a step to get closer, your playing sounds really good. Sounds like you can work on your own harps (I can't) and have a Chromonika III. As an example, I just posted yesterday an original song of mine, called The Traveler. It's a VERY basic recording, tape machine plugged into the PA sound board, it's outdoors in a large park (about 1,100 people) and I am just playing straight into a Shure SM58. Most is single line playing but, in the second chorus of the solo at 3:25 you can hear the tone of the 64 natural. This particular harp had cool story: met a gentleman at a flea market (before eBay) and he was in France end of WW2, 1944. The war was declared over and to celebrate he went into a small music shop in Paris and bought two brand new Hohner 64 (280) Chromatics. He was nice enough to offer me one. These were not for sale, he had a Marine Band at his booth and when he heard me play and we talked he offered to sell me one, went to his house. He saw it as somewhat of a "passing of the torch" by it going to me. Dick Gardner fully restored it (was beautiful to begin with) said the had the original "Deutschmark" price tag on back, verifying that would have been where it was sold, and that is cost him about $4.50!!! Dick G. said it was as good a Chro. as he had ever heard. Anyway, I realize it's a subtle difference from the CX-12 but, you can kind of hear that "reedy" tone, that is Little Walter's recording seem to have.....in addition to him being Little Walter of course!
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