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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! > Chromatic Blues Questions imported to MBH
Chromatic Blues Questions imported to MBH
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dougharps
2089 posts
Mar 26, 2020
10:22 AM
On a different deliberately-left-unnamed-by-me forum an unnamed player who is also a member of MBH posed a couple questions to the group about how to play parts of the chromatic harmonica songs below. I am also a member of both forums. The unnamed forum had been fairly tolerant of my atypical approach to keyed chromatic harmonica playing and did not seem concerned that I also play diatonic harmonica.

The songs in the videos were performed on chromatic harmonicas, the questions that were asked were about chromatic harmonica technique.

I was shocked at the initial negative reaction on the unnamed forum apparently because the album covers in the videos showed diatonic players.

Even when it was established that the YouTube clips were of chromatic harmonica songs, there seemed to be a negative reaction to the idea of asking about how to play blues style chromatic.

After heated exchanges of viewpoints on the forum, posts were deleted, the thread was locked, and the chromatic harmonica questions were unresolved. I decided to transport the questions to MBH to see if they could be answered here.


Here are the questions:
*************

There is a doublet at the end of the piece on the 3 draw, 2 blow that is so fast and smooth. How is he doing that? Is he tongue blocking it or is he moving the harmonica sideways?
Here's a link to the piece again, the doublet starts at the 2:36 time. [I, Doug S. think he is moving the harmonica from side to side, whether tongue blocked or not.]





I've also started working on William Clarke's "It's Been A Long Time"



Please help me, is he using a C in 2nd position or and F chromatic in 3rd. I understand that it can be played on the C and I initially have started trying to learn to play it on the C but it sits on the F harp so well and falls into place. [I, Doug S. think he is playing in 3rd.]
*****************

Whether the MBH member who posted wants to identify himself or remain anonymous, that is his choice.

I just could not stomach valid blues chromatic questions left to die on the vine.

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Doug S.

Last Edited by dougharps on Mar 26, 2020 12:03 PM
Gnarly
2757 posts
Mar 26, 2020
11:13 AM
You know me, I am interested too.
That other forum is great, but there is a great deal of drama at times.
Not like here (Michalek,I am looking at you).
WinslowYerxa
1677 posts
Mar 26, 2020
11:16 AM
The shimmer between E and A you're hearing on the the Estrin piece does not involve breath changes. he plays both E up to A and A up to E, which tells me that he's corner switching. (E up to A would be neighboring holes, on an A chromatic, while A up to E involves hole leaps, and can only be played this fast and smoothly with corner switching while tongue blocking.) It sounds like he's playing a G chromatic in third position. One telltale sign is the smooth move from C down to G# early in the piece is also same-breath, done between two slide-in blow notes). The the E-A and A-E shimmers you're hearing are all slide-out draw notes.

The Clarke piece sounds like an F in third. When he moves between G and Bb, and also D-B-G, those are same-breath moves, while they would require breath changes in second position.

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LFLISBOA
68 posts
Mar 26, 2020
11:38 AM
Estrin's effect is achieved by moving the tongue, but you can get similar result moving the head (using tongue blocking), both require lots of practice, but I think it's easier the Estrin's approach.
dougharps
2090 posts
Mar 26, 2020
11:59 AM
Thank you, WinslowYerxa and LFLISBOA!

I hope he sees your responses.

Gary, there is drama everywhere. Sometimes I get dramatic, too. Shortly after posting the above I entered my last post on the other forum and then acted to delete my account.

So little of the music I enjoy was being represented there, and the negativity presented at the thought of diatonic or blues shocked me.

The post was about CHROMATIC technique, yet the response by some was very hostile.

I am not primarily a traditional blues player, but I enjoy blues and play it some. I do use diatonic more than chromatic. I enjoyed the chromatic discussion and learned a few things, too, over years on that forum.

Today I decided that my musical interests were not represented there and the lack of acceptance of musical diversity on the part of some members made me reconsider my long standing membership.

I think for chromatic harmonica to survive as a viable instrument in the future it needs to be played in diverse genres accepted by a broad range of the public and not relegated to obscure historical musical contexts.
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Doug S.
dougharps
2091 posts
Mar 26, 2020
2:42 PM
@WinslowYerxa

I guess it is technically "corner switching" on a G chromatic in third when Rick Estrin plays it at 2:36 above.

I would think of it as blocking the 6 hole with my tongue while drawing and shaking to get the 5 draw A and 7 draw E. Having watched Bonfiglio corner switch big intervals playing fast classical music pieces this seems almost too easy to be called "corner switching".
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Doug S.
blingty
118 posts
Mar 26, 2020
3:21 PM
Hi Doug,

Sorry to see you go off the other forum. I've been close to going a few times too.. hadn't realised that posts had been deleted, I was looking forward to listening to the videos.

Anyway, I always enjoy your posts. I couldn't agree more with your assertion that we need greater integration with multiple musical styles for chromatic.

Take care
Jim Rumbaugh
1350 posts
Mar 26, 2020
5:41 PM
@Doug

I am reminded of a comment from Marvin Monroe of the Buckeye Harmonica Club. :"I don't think people care if you're playing chromatic or diatonic, it's the style of music that matters"

That seems to fit what you ran into.
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theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)

Last Edited by Jim Rumbaugh on Mar 26, 2020 5:41 PM
WinslowYerxa
1678 posts
Mar 26, 2020
6:14 PM
@dougharps

It's still corner switching as long as the corners are not neighboring holes and you move your tongue back and forth to alternate betwen the two outside holes while blocking whatever lies between.

----------
Harmonica lessons with one of the world's foremost experts
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Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
Harmonica Collective April livestream April 5, 2020
SPAH 2020 convention in Saint Louis, August 11-15

Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Mar 26, 2020 6:14 PM
John M G
350 posts
Mar 26, 2020
6:21 PM
Hi everyone
I have to fess up, yep it was me again! It was my post! I did it
Currently I seem to be an unwilling magnet for controversy! One of the reasons I thought I’d kinda tread gently here for a while and posted my questions on the other forum.
It wasn’t pretty! All sanitized now though and locked! It appears even pictures of diatonic harmonicas (or Suck Harps) are provocation enough! It just didn’t occur to me when I posted the YouTube links there.

I really should have posted it here as this is THE space for Blues discussions.
Doug, thank you so much for reposting here at MBH .
As you know Doug, I made a mistake earlier on thinking that George Smith must have played “Roaming” using a Bb chromatic. With the benefit of knowledge from you and Bob Maglinte I now know it was played on a C chromatic and what initially seemed so impossible was in fact so simple (it’s all done with the button in on a C chromatic in the key of C which makes it 6th position I think)
Having got Roaming sorted the last thing I wanted to do was make similar mistakes with these 2 pieces.
I’ve got Harlem Nocturne to an acceptable level, except that teeny weeny little bit at the end. I’m playing it on my 16 hole C though. I will try the advice and give it a go on my G
I was fairly sure that the William Clarke piece used and F chromatic, again because on the mistakes I’d made with Roaming I wasn’t entirely sure if in fact he also was using a C. I got the opening bars okay but it was really hard work from there. I was fairly confident but far from 100% convinced it was on an F instrument.
I listened to it much more carefully after the controversy and I now I’m not 100% sure if Bill hadn’t maybe switched to a low F at the 3:36 position on this track?
Thank you Dougharps, Gnarly, Winslow, LFLISBOA and Blighty
I’m working hard to improve my chromatic playing and repertoire. Oh, and I really am quite a loveable guy, honest!
Stay safe everyone
Cheers John

Last Edited by John M G on Mar 26, 2020 6:22 PM
Gnarly
2758 posts
Mar 26, 2020
7:03 PM
Doug, blues informs your playing—in fact, we probably have similar musical instincts.
As fond as I am of AJ and Slidemeister (oops), I understand the rules. It’s his ball and his bat, and if you don’t play by his rules you go home.
Glad there is a little more latitude here
dougharps
2092 posts
Mar 26, 2020
8:29 PM
To be fair, the forum owner knew it was chromatic, and his actions were not because it was blues.

It was the contention in the subsequent exchanges that resulted in deletions and locking the thread. He has strong opinions about civility and didn't care who was "right".

I left of my own choice when I realized that music I enjoy is hardly ever represented there, and when some was posted with valid chromatic questions it was strongly rejected because diatonics were pictured and because the music was blues.

One strident individual said, "Shove off!"

After considering all of the above, I shoved off. I don't frequent places that foster attitudes like that person's. If he was not going to be corrected, I was leaving.

At this stage of my life and musical journey I wasn't getting that much out of the group anymore. I do not have ambitions to learn to play the music commonly represented there. The guy rejecting the Rick Estrin and William Clarke videos is likely more suited to that group than I was.
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Doug S.

Last Edited by dougharps on Mar 26, 2020 8:38 PM
WinslowYerxa
1679 posts
Mar 27, 2020
9:22 AM
@John M G
" (it’s all done with the button in on a C chromatic in the key of C which makes it 6th position I think)"

Actually C on a C chromatic is first position. The only thing that determines position is the relationship between the key of the song and the key of the harmonica.

There are different pathways through some positions, and The slide-in draw path is one that gives you a whole different pathway through playing in C on a C chromatic.

Sixth position, by the way, would be B on a C chromatic.
----------
Harmonica lessons with one of the world's foremost experts
Check out my blog and other goodies at winslowyerxa.com
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
Harmonica Collective April livestream April 5, 2020
SPAH 2020 convention in Saint Louis, August 11-15
sonvolt13
209 posts
Mar 27, 2020
10:00 AM
In Dave Barrett’s transcription book for Serious Intentions he lists it as C 16 hole chromatic in 2nd. There is a lot of use of the +1/5 octave and the 3/7 octave with the slide in. He does switch to a low F at the end. I don’t play much chromatic lately but I remember the tab matching the song.

Last Edited by sonvolt13 on Mar 27, 2020 10:02 AM
StalwartJohnson
57 posts
Mar 28, 2020
3:46 PM
I’d offer some decent dough for a copy/scan/whatever of the Serious Intentions transcription book...
SuperBee
6558 posts
Mar 28, 2020
5:23 PM
^ i’d Love a look at that publication too. I have the Big Walter with Carey bell, and the Carey Bell deep down books David transcribed, but I’ve searched high and low for the Clarke and Sugar Blue books without a sighting. Well, maybe I saw the serious intentions book once at an outlandish price.
sonvolt13
210 posts
Mar 29, 2020
5:55 AM
Well if there is a particular song you guys want I could mail a copy to
One of you and you could pay it forward.
tmf714
3166 posts
Mar 29, 2020
6:22 AM
I own the transcript book as well.
And the tab is correct.
William is using a 16 hole key of C Chromonica using the button.

The song is in the key of G minor.

The last solo William uses a Low F in third postion.

Last Edited by tmf714 on Mar 29, 2020 6:57 AM
tmf714
3167 posts
Mar 29, 2020
7:04 AM
WC-It-s-Been-a-Long-Time-tab

Last Edited by tmf714 on Mar 29, 2020 7:18 AM
John M G
351 posts
Mar 29, 2020
5:38 PM
It sure pays to ask.
Thank you so much @tmf714
Once again I was wrong in picking the correctly keyed chromatic to use.
I'd found those opening 5 bars fairly quickly okay, but the further I got into it the harder it was finding the right chords. When I switched to to the F it kinda falls out of the harmonica but on a C!? man that's going to be a bear to learn.
It really does bring it home just HOW GOOD these guys were back in the day.
I've had a very humbling reality check over the past 10 days or so. I can see my knowledge and playing acumen leave a lot to be desired after a couple of sessions with Michael. Never a better time to practice now though.
I'm indebted to Dougharps for re posting this question here. Thank you so much Doug. Oh, and I forgot to thank Winslow on two counts, the position and the corner switching technique.
Stay inside everyone and stay well.
Cheers JG

Last Edited by John M G on Mar 29, 2020 10:58 PM
Gnarly
2763 posts
Mar 29, 2020
6:12 PM
G minor is easier if you use bebop tuning—tune blow 4 to Bb.
jbone
3167 posts
Mar 29, 2020
7:34 PM
I hung at Slidemeister some years ago. Since I have no real training and am a gut player 99%, I didn't really fit in.
You guys are more advanced than I am as well but we've always gotten along, which is a blessing.
I do use chromatic but no half notes ie slide in. Perhaps I "should" figure that all out but I ask myself why? One song we do is in F and requires 3rd position, Eb. I either use Eb diatonics- low and regular- or my Suzuki SCX in D with the slide in, which is Eb.

I use all 3 key chromatics I have for both 1st and 3rd position playing depending on song. I've found my way around to where I need to be very nicely.

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SuperBee
6561 posts
Mar 30, 2020
12:53 AM
Jbone, if you have any interest, when you’re playing that slide-in style, you could try letting it out on the 3 draw to dip to the flat 5th. See what you think. Maybe doesn’t suit your song but it’s just one move.
jbone
3168 posts
Mar 30, 2020
6:31 AM
I will give that a try Bee.
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dougharps
2093 posts
Mar 30, 2020
6:47 AM
I want to take this opportunity to thank Winslow Yerxa for his long term, wide ranging, ongoing contributions to assisting and informing those who play harmonicas of any kind.

He is very knowledgeable, a good communicator, and willing to share with others. I always refer new players asking for help to get at least one of his Harmonica for Dummies books (Blues or more general). The books are outstanding references and learning tools for players over a wide range of skill levels.

Thank you, Winslow!
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Doug S.
jbone
3169 posts
Mar 30, 2020
7:44 AM
Let me second that. Winslow is one of the nicest people I've ever seen on the interweb.

Thank you, Winslow!
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Raven
177 posts
Mar 30, 2020
8:37 AM
And, of course we have Adam and Nate here to manage the civility. If anyone gets too far out of line on MBH, they'll hear about it or get the boot. There is great diversity here that most all of us appreciate. jbone's tag line says a lot when he mentions music destroying prejudice along with exposure to other cultures through travel. I'd venture to say that even though this is a blues forum particularly suited to diatonic, many of us, as shown by various comments, have a much wider variety of musical interests: rock, country, jazz, classical, and yes...chromatic playing. The old adage is, "Variety is the spice of life." That goes for musical genre, playing style, choice of tunings, instruments. Look at all of the innovations you can learn about here, like Brendan's recent posts about using an I-pad to create new configurations of sound or the various suggestions regarding alternate tunings. Some of us aren't even primarily blues players, but we can learn so much from each other if we keep open minds. Personally I have great respect for anyone who is accomplished on both diatonic and chromatic. With the advent of moog, midi and Blue Man Group's PVC pipe music, I came to realize that there is so much more to explore in how to generate melody and harmony. For now, though, I spend my time each afternoon in the woodshed with my 80 or so 10-holes.
jbone
3170 posts
Mar 30, 2020
9:32 AM
@Raven, That is a credo of mine even if not so long ago I was called out for my attitude on pet dogs.
My pedigree begins with blues harp, but in recent years or decades I have moved into country-old school- roots rock, jump/swing, even trash disco.

This is in my opinion the best moderated forum out there. I have been called to task for a few opinions I've expressed and have promptly set things as right as possible. I say that having actually started a harp players' group on Facebook, not as competition but just as a new agora where people can come visit, post, teach, learn, whatever. I hope to be as good a host as Adam and Nate are.
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knight66
117 posts
Mar 30, 2020
9:58 AM
In that page of music where it says "original" the first two notes are (if I've read it right)7draw and a 4 draw is that played as a tounge blocked cord, blocking the 5 and 6. Which i think is a B and a A played flat, i'm sure i've got this completely wrong cause that top note looks like a B to me. I'm trying to teach myself to read music but that's confusing me. Thanks in advance for any help.
tmf714
3168 posts
Mar 30, 2020
12:30 PM
That first notes include B flat and C-part of the G minor scale.
It's a tough one for sure-shows you just how good William really was.

Last Edited by tmf714 on Mar 30, 2020 12:48 PM
SuperBee
6562 posts
Mar 30, 2020
1:15 PM
knight66, the music script shows an octave split on Bb which would be achieved by inhaling 7 draw and 3 draw with the slide in. the harp tab shows 7 draw and 4 draw slide in which would be Bb and C.

so right off the bat there is a conflict between the harp tab and the standard notation.

I'm not familiar with the recording so i don't have an opinion about which is correct but past experience has been that in such cases its usually the harp tab which is wrong

i know its just right there posted in this thread, but early morning and people still in bed etc...i'm about to start 'working from home' so not playing music videos right now

EDTIT: ok, later, just checked it out and for mine thats a 7/3 inhale slide in ie Bb octave split to begin, followed by the exhale slide out

Last Edited by SuperBee on Mar 30, 2020 3:58 PM
6SN7
845 posts
Apr 01, 2020
7:53 AM
Welcome John MG
I saw that nonsense over at Slidemeister.

Here's my take on Slidemeister and the folks that are the major domos/contributors there. They are old school SPAH chromatic players. They play show tunes, standards, classic and other popular music on the harp. They don't like Blues. too noisy, croaky vocals, and too simple---those blues guys just play 3rd position, blah blah blah. I posted a Dennis Gruenling video the year he won an award at SPAH and all the comments were about he was too loud or his black finger nails.

As interesting as the forum can be, it is run with an iron fist by AJ, it's his front porch and his bat and ball. He rules, that's it. I thought his response to you was cheeky, I have had similar run in. Unfortunately its a small group over there, they have chased away a lot of decent blues guys and the majority of participants is over 65 in age. and they like it like that. Too bad, there are a lot of great players who have skipped that site and the site is poorer bcuase of it.
StalwartJohnson
63 posts
Jun 06, 2020
2:17 PM
Sonvolt, I'd like to take you up on this: "Well if there is a particular song you guys want I could mail a copy to one of you and you could pay it forward."

I'm not seeing any contact info on your account but feel free to contact me via the email provided when you click on my account. Let's talk.

Thanks in advance!


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