SuperBee
6491 posts
Feb 15, 2020
2:56 AM
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I think this is something to do with attention/distraction, but I don’t really know what it is. Maybe you have some insight.
I was playing with some band mates and everything was ok for me. Suddenly the guitar became much louder and my little Princeton Reverb was no longer the loudest thing I could hear. I could still hear it, there was no problem with hearing it but it was less clear and there were other, louder sounds coming from the guitar amp.
I found it much harder to play. I found it much harder to think ‘musically’, independently of what the guitar was doing. It was almost like the things the guitar was doing were overriding my own thoughts, or even that I no longer had a musical feeling of my own.
It seemed entirely about the volume, or maybe the density of the other sounds. I didn’t feel inspired anymore, the muse had run from the room. Almost like how I don’t want to talk in a noisy environment.
Earlier I’d noticed how when playing a complicated piece with a lot of licks which needed to swing, I was regularly encountering problems playing with the band which I didn’t have when practicing at home with a track, and I realised I was ‘noticing’ things, in other words being distracted, and this always preceded me fluffing a line. Usually what I was noticing was the guitar being on a different beat or playing a rhythm which struck me as messy or unsynchronised, and being vaguely annoyed by it. This seemed to be enough to take my attention from what i was about to do and then I’m on the hop, not concentrating on my part.
Now, that’s a challenging song for everyone in the group and I dare say the bass player is not making it easy for the guitarist either, as he is having a lot of fun. I am focused on the drums and the drummer is interacting with me. The song is really focused on that interplay of drums and harp. Anyway, I’m not too worried about that, I know what needs happen there, but I mentioned it because I think it’s interesting from the distraction angle. I think that too loud guitar in the other song was in its way a different expression of the same issue. Like if you are trying to deliver a speech and someone in your audience is having a loud conversation, and you just can’t even start to roll out your talk because you’re hearing this other thing.
Even if the other thing is just nah de nah de nah nah.
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Thievin' Heathen
1197 posts
Feb 15, 2020
7:13 AM
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In your opening line, "but I don’t really know what it is", my thoughts went immediately to "TIMING". I'm thinking in addition to being too loud the guitar player is starting his own groove. If the guitar play was in the groove, I don't think being too loud would throw you off so much. Just my opinion. I see it all the time at jams. As soon as I start feeling like, "I'm gonna sound like shit, I got nothin' here", I look for the beat and it's left the building.
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Lou
95 posts
Feb 15, 2020
7:21 AM
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I play in a loud band and 2 things you mention is trying to play a lick/runs you have worked out with a practice track at home can be very frustrating. I end up always adjusting/changing the lick because the band has only played or even heard that tune a few times this is mainly on fast stuff with a lot of harp notes, at first this bothered me because I spent hours/days working on 12 bar head in but listening back to recordings the song becomes ours, and I'm no where the talent of the harp players I'm coping licks from you know close but no cigar maybe if was an ace player this would bother me more ? The volume thing/loud guitar or 2 sucks but I have adapted by locking on to the drums and bass, telling the guitar player to turn down your hurting my ears, we sound like train wreck ect., ditched the Princeton for a 40 watt 2X10 harp amp with a Harp break pedal I can keep up without having to blow my brains out to be heard & I think having that power behind me let's me concentrate on what I'm playing.
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dougharps
2071 posts
Feb 15, 2020
8:09 AM
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I don't like band members being too loud as sometimes I can't hear myself and my ears will ring the next day despite ear plugs.
However, what throws me off musically is when two or more players are not synchronized in maintaining the groove, or in the timing or even making the same specific chord change.
My musical thinking is pulled in different directions by instruments not being on time, and unless I can pick one groove quickly and commit to it musically, what I play is not good as it could have been.
You said you still hear yourself fine, so I am thinking what is messing you up isn't guitar volume, but what you indicated in this statement:
"Usually what I was noticing was the guitar being on a different beat or playing a rhythm which struck me as messy or unsynchronised, and being vaguely annoyed by it. "
If the groove is struggling it is difficult to express your musical ideas very well, regardless of volume level. Having the groove messed up loudly just makes it harder to follow those who are still together with the groove.
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Doug S.
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barbequebob
3637 posts
Feb 15, 2020
8:59 AM
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It doesn't matter how loud or soft the volume is with any musician but when you are playing with musicians with lousy time, you're playing with LOUSY MUSICIANS, period!!! Musicians with lousy time NEVER GROOVE AT ALL and nothing is ever going to be remotely close to being tight at all and that's is THE TRUTH!!!!!
It sounds like you're playing with heavily over glorified jam hacks and very typical of musicians with lousy time is that when the dynamics get brought down, those musicians will have a tendency to slow down and when the dynamics goes up, the volume goes up, and musicians with lousy time ALWAYS speeds up.
Too many harp players buy into the classic jam hack stupidity that the drummer is the beat, the metronome and in most jams, most drummers do NOT have good time and the only real way to recognize if your own time is any good or any other musician's time is actually good is to take the time to woodshed and get your own time together FIRST and it will not only improve your playing skills, it HEAVILY upgrade your listening skills as well.
Again, here's an article I wrote about why harp players should woodshed and learn time:
Why Should I Be Learning Time, Especially as a Harp Player?
One thing I see with harp players far too often is that they throw around the words time and timing as interchangeably meaning the same thing but they're two totally different concepts. TIME refers to the actual tempo of the tune and if you lose the time, you've either sped up or slowed down and/or done both within the same tune. TIMING has more to do with things like when you come in or get out of a phrase, effect, etc. and has ZERO to do with the tempo at all.
If the band plays more in a rock groove, being ahead of the beat, the groove will NEVER swing at all and forget about it sounding bluesy at all. Read the article FULLY and maybe you'll begin to get a grasp on it.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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Thievin' Heathen
1198 posts
Feb 15, 2020
1:33 PM
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I stand corrected, "TIME" I certainly hope no one was confused by my negligent use of the word timing. I hope it was understood I was referring to the rate at which the guitar player was playing too loudly and not the place in the song when he decided to do so, although I suppose that intermittent spikes in volume could be pretty distracting also.
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The Iceman
4021 posts
Feb 15, 2020
3:02 PM
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"suddenly the guitar became much louder"
what happened to the balance on stage of all the instruments? Did everyone turn up to match the guitar? Did everyone look at the guitar and give him "stink eye" for being no longer part of the ensemble? Is the band playing as an ensemble or just a collection of individuals each doing what they want?
In any of the above situations, I shake my head and just leave the stage. There is nothing that I can add to insanity that will make it palatable, so - exit stage left.
At this later stage of the game, I'm not compelled to play in situations like this because of some kind of younger person's need to just want stage time no matter good or bad.
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The Iceman
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SuperBee
6493 posts
Feb 15, 2020
3:53 PM
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Interesting thoughts, and thank you all for them.
On reflection, and notwithstanding other thoughts which have been raised and which may be completely valid and relevant, I think i have hearing damage. Looking back, i see I’ve been rendered ‘blank’ by loud environments for quite a while, not just in a musical context.
The expression ‘I can’t hear myself think’ comes to mind.
A review of my history re loud environments shows me I’d be a very unusual physical specimen if I had not sustained damage to my hearing.
I’m going to read more about hearing loss. I suspect there’s more to learn about it than i currently understand.
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dougharps
2072 posts
Feb 15, 2020
4:10 PM
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I have some loss and constant tinnitus. In recent years I mainly play acoustic music or very low stage volume electric gigs.
Recently there was a piece on TV about Huey Lewis's hearing problems. Here is an article from Rolling Stone:
Huey Lewis Hearing
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Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Feb 15, 2020 4:11 PM
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garry
771 posts
Feb 15, 2020
5:29 PM
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I would highly recommend always playing with earplugs, preferably the custom kind that mold to your ear canal. Hang on to as much of your hearing as you can. I find that I can actually hear better, since my ears aren't in constant overload and clipping.
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Last Edited by garry on Feb 16, 2020 5:49 PM
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jbone
3128 posts
Feb 15, 2020
5:34 PM
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I'm kind of with Doug on this. Good idea to get your hearing checked Bee. I've had mid range loss for a long time and toward the end of my work with loudass bands I noticed similar issues as you describe. Along with tinnitus.
I have been pretty exclusively playing in a duo for 6+ years now. Occasional jams here or there but any long time exposure to louder music is not a good thing for me. The sound seems to fluctuate and it's not the guitarist jacking volume. My perception gets affected. My tinnitus the next day is a lot worse too, from barely noticeable to a serious undertone that interferes with normal conversations.
With acoustic or amped duo gigs it's much less 90% of the time.
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Music and travel destroy prejudice.
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Spderyak
322 posts
Feb 16, 2020
4:20 AM
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Hard to say whether playing too loud or to soft is a sign of being lousy musicians, but it would seem to me you could just kick out or replace the offending musician.
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knight66
114 posts
Feb 16, 2020
8:51 AM
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SuperBee
I'm with Doug and Jbone, I have to wear a hearing aid and suffer from tinnitus badly in my left ear and not so bad in my right. Though I don't play in a band I understand what you describe and I think it would be worth getting your hearing checked.
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Fil
462 posts
Feb 16, 2020
12:23 PM
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Yep. The damage is cumulative, there's no getting it back once it's gone. Invest in a thorough check and get some good advice re protection. I wish I'd known 'then' the price I'd be paying now.
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Phil Pennington
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SuperBee
6495 posts
Feb 16, 2020
4:25 PM
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I’ve been doing some reading and online hearing tests.
It’s been quite interesting. There’s not only a possibility of damage to the apparatus, and potentially a couple of different aspects to the type of damage and how that can manifest, but also there’s the question of how the brain operates to process the information coming into the ears. This processing can also be affected by whatever else the brain has to deal with at the same time, so for instance when you are looking for a parking spot it’s possible you’ll feel like turning the radio down. I was always puzzled by that, because I’ve noticed I do this almost always and I think it’s weird that I can’t find a house number if the music is too loud or someone is carrying on like a pork chop in the back seat I find it difficult to drive and pay attention.
This is not so much a hearing loss problem as a brain function problem, but hearing loss can exacerbate the problem because the brain has to work harder processing the aural incoming and has less attention to spare for other things.
Fatigue can also be a factor. Stress too I guess, but I’m trying to not guess.
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groyster1
3524 posts
Feb 17, 2020
4:46 AM
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I have continuous ringing in ear.....saw an ENT and he said its brought on by hearing loss causing the brain to react to it
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Homeless Joe
6 posts
Feb 17, 2020
7:38 AM
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Musicians get too loud sometimes. When that happens I can not hear or think. I carry ear plugs but if I have to use them then it's time to kick somebody out of the band or for me to leave the band.
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The Iceman
4022 posts
Feb 17, 2020
8:31 AM
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if you are talking about blues bands - c'mon, guys. Check out OLD VIDEOS of classic Chicago style blues - like Gunsmoke Blues Video for example.
Notice that the drummers played a small kit, amps were pretty small, no bank of monitors blowing back with different mixes for each musician and the overall volume was very "ear friendly" - and yet, it was compelling because of the groove, etc...When rock and rollers started playing blues, they substituted VOLUME IN YOUR FACE for groove and finesse, and it seems to have continued down to this day.
Seems like "If you can't grab them with talent/groove, beat them over the head with loudness" is the new philosophy, IMO.
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The Iceman
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jbone
3129 posts
Feb 18, 2020
7:25 PM
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"This is not so much a hearing loss problem as a brain function problem, but hearing loss can exacerbate the problem because the brain has to work harder processing the aural incoming and has less attention to spare for other things."
I get that. Looking back, once I began working around loud equipment, it got so I could not understand someone unless they were talking right in my face. This has carried through into every day life. On a stage with the current turn up to 11 mentality that is still a phenomenon for me and that's part of why I have opted for the duo thing. I think seeing a face and maybe sort of subliminally reading lips is a part of how I understand people these days.
@Ice, totally agree with the above. For me early on, I bought an amp and mic way too soon and got on stage with loud cats way too early. That led to the dilemma of volume vs tone and tone lost for some time. And volume did its damage meanwhile.
With the duo thing we keep the volume low as much as possible. 12w amps, up "just enough". P.A. set the same.
Thankfully my tinnitus manifests when things are quiet and not on stage!
The brain does adapt.
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Music and travel destroy prejudice.
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Rgsccr
509 posts
Feb 19, 2020
10:09 AM
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The jam I go to regularly put up a decibel meter a couple of months ago. They want it to stay under 100. While some guys initially objected, most have gotten used to it, and it's made for better music (I know I like it much better). Also, my band is playing a gig next week in a ballroom that is part of a nice hotel, and they too have a decibel limit - 102. This place, the Spanish Ballroom in Tacoma, WA, has music most nights of the week including national acts like Tommy Castro, so this approach doesn't seem to be hurting them.
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SuperBee
6498 posts
Feb 19, 2020
12:11 PM
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102 is loud.
It’s a good question. How loud is loud.
I had a decibel meter at the local blues club at one time and I found ‘loud’ acts were peaking around 94dB, and averaging around 90dB
The dB is a fairly awful unit of measure but as I (barely) understand, an increase of 3dB represents a doubling of ‘power’, which is not the same as a doubling of perceived volume but it is sometimes used as ‘twice as loud’.
So 100dB could be said to be at least twice as loud as 96dB, which I perceived as ‘loud’.
I did not measure but I think the volume level that shut me down the other day was nothing like that loud. Maybe 92dB. I could still hear my Princeton Reverb but it was weak sounding. It’s strange how that works too.
You can simulate the effect. I have a radio in my kitchen. If I boil the jug, the sound of the radio gradually disappears and as it does, the quality of the sound perceived, declines. It’s not simply drowned out; certain frequencies disappear before others. Once you start to notice this you realize you can observe these effects all around
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