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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! > Just Intonation vs. Equal Temperament
Just Intonation vs. Equal Temperament
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florida-trader
1441 posts
Aug 03, 2019
8:56 AM
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Here is a cool little video that provides a visual representation of the differences between Just Intonation, also known as Pure Intonation and Equal Temperament.

I know that we have a diverse group on this forum ranging from beginners who may not have seen this information before, to experienced pros who are very familiar with it.

Keeping things simple, most of the harmonicas we all play are “Richter Tuned” which refers to the layout of the notes on the blow plate and the draw plate. What some may not realize is that there are a variety of ways to tune each individual reed, relative to each other. I look at it as black, white and various shades of gray. On one end of the spectrum, we have Equal Temperament. On the other end we have Just (or Pure) Intonation. And in between, we have an almost limitless choice of “Compromise” Temperaments.

Quoting from Wikipedia, “equal temperament is a musical temperament, or a system of tuning, in which the frequency interval between every pair of adjacent notes has the same ratio”.

Quoting from http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Music/just.html, Just temperament refers to a musical scale or musical intervals which maintain exact integer ratios between pitches. For example, the ration 3:2 is said to be a "just" musical fifth and is sometimes called a "perfect fifth".

What does that mean for us harmonica players? Generally speaking, on harmonicas tuned to Equal Temperament, the individual notes sound in tune with other instruments but the chords sound “rough”. The Hohner Golden Melody is an Equal Temperament (ET) harmonica and as the name implies, is designed for playing melodies. The original tuning of the Hohner Marine Band is 7-Limit Just Intonation. They were tuned to produce rich chords but unfortunately the individual notes can sound out of tune when played with other instruments. As the harmonica evolved into a solo instrument this created some issues. When we play our harmonicas by ourselves, with no other instruments to guide us, our ears adjust to notes that might be slightly out of tune. However, when we play with other instruments that are not tuned exactly like our harmonicas, like a guitar, piano or organ, it can create discordance.

Compromise Temperaments are attempts to find the best of both worlds – have the chords sound right and the individual notes sound in tune. Technically this is impossible, hence the label “Compromise”. And it is also the reason that there are so many various of Compromise Temperaments as each one will lean slightly in one direction or another.

This is an oversimplified explanation of the subject. There is a ton of good information available for those who want to dig deeper. Pat Missin has a ton of good information. Richard Sleigh has authored some good articles on the subject. Andrew Zajac has some good stuff on his website too. But I thought this video was interesting.

Just Intonation vs Equal Temperament

Last Edited by florida-trader on Aug 03, 2019 8:56 AM
Thievin' Heathen
1153 posts
Aug 03, 2019
11:20 AM
I like to think of J.I. as a little old man, sitting at his bench in Trossingen a hundred years ago with 1 tuning fork and a file, tuning harps by ear. I think of E.T. as a tech sitting at a bench with lots of light, a digital tuner and a rotary tool.

Probably a bit delusional.
dougharps
1990 posts
Aug 03, 2019
1:45 PM
Last century I had moved to playing equal intonation harps (Lee Oskars) when Hohners were having quality problems and also for the replacement reed plates. Sometime around 2005 to 2010 I read about just intonation harps and the difference tones that are generated.

https://www.patmissin.com/tunings/tun0.html

I listened to a demonstration of just tuned blues harp vs. equal intonation.

https://www.patmissin.com/tunings/audio.html

I bought a few just tuned Hering 1923 diatonics to try them out with a bullet mic and tube amp to compare with the Lee Oskars. The difference tones on the just intonation harps made for a massive amplified sound when playing chords.

The Herings were barely OK otherwise, leaky with rough hewn combs, etc. However, the flat sounding notes did bother me sometimes when playing with others, so I finally settled on compromise intonation harps and went back to Hohners.

I like Hohner compromise (SP20, Rocket, MBD, and Crossover) harps for the slightly sweeter chords than I get with compromise Manjis, but the Manjis hold up better on loud stages when I sometimes play too hard. I still use both in my kit, depending on stage volume and what music I am playing. The Lee Oskars, which are decent harps, are now just spares I carry in my car harp kit.

The difference tones are the biggest factor in my opinion.

https://www.patmissin.com/ffaq/q26.html

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Doug S.

Last Edited by dougharps on Aug 03, 2019 1:57 PM
Gnarly
2679 posts
Aug 03, 2019
3:35 PM
JI vs ET is a good reason to start tuning your own harmonicas.
Get it like you want it.
groyster1
3409 posts
Aug 04, 2019
7:36 AM
I have many vintage marine bands some of which have star of david on bottom cover plates......as far as I know they are JI tuned or blues tuning......they have the sound and tone I want for second and third position
florida-trader
1442 posts
Aug 04, 2019
10:18 AM
Doug - try tuning your Manjis to Modern Compromise Temperament (current Marine Band Tuning). It brings them to life and makes them a much better harp. Just my opinion.

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Tom Halchak
Blue Moon Harmonicas
Blue Moon Harmonicas
dougharps
1992 posts
Aug 04, 2019
10:38 AM
Thanks for the suggestion, Tom. I think you are right about addressing the problem by re-tuning them to the Hohner compromise. I have a chart with the different tuning temperaments on different harps.

So far I have been too lazy to take on that task. I think of my 14 Manjis and get overwhelmed and procrastinate, telling myself they don't sound bad, just not as good.

However, I could just start with re-tuning the commonly used keys and not try to do all my Manjis at once.

I tend to only get into tuning reeds when I hear something going wrong. Then I use whatever compromise scheme to which the harp was previously tuned, minimizing the number of reeds I need to change. Lazy...

So despite having the ability to re-tune reeds (I figured it out way back before any info was available), it is a seldom used skill and at this point,slow.
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Doug S.
Jim Rumbaugh
1328 posts
Aug 04, 2019
12:04 PM
my 2 cents

If you play mostly 2nd position blues, go JUST INTONATION It sounds GREAT

If you play 1st, 3rd and other positions, go with ET or one of the compromise tunings.

I re-tuned a few of mine to JUST on holes 1 through 4 for the chords but left 5 through 10 ET.



JimRubaugh
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theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)

Last Edited by Jim Rumbaugh on Aug 04, 2019 12:06 PM
Sarge
737 posts
Aug 04, 2019
3:57 PM
7 limit ji is the the one for old time barn dance type music played in first position with the melody/chord type of playing.
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Wisdom does not always come with old age. Sometimes old age arrives alone.
groyster1
3412 posts
Aug 04, 2019
8:54 PM
not so.....its blues tuning and not barn dance harp

Last Edited by groyster1 on Aug 04, 2019 8:55 PM
Sarge
738 posts
Aug 05, 2019
4:10 AM
What's not so?
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Wisdom does not always come with old age. Sometimes old age arrives alone.
groyster1
3413 posts
Aug 05, 2019
4:48 AM
never heard sonny boy Williamson and little walter playing barn dance music with their marine bands tuned to JI
Kingley
4130 posts
Aug 05, 2019
5:03 AM
groyster1, You may want to look more into the history of the harmonica and 7 Limit JI tuning in particular. It most definitely wasn't invented for blues. Using the harmonica for playing blues only came about, because African Americans started playing it because of it's cheap price and discovered that if they played it in a manner it wasn't intended to be played in, they could create notes/sounds that were sonically pleasing to them. Before that and after that it was used as a folk instrument. Many of the early blues players didn't just play blues on it. They also played jigs, reels, folk, country, hillbilly and a whole lot more. They most certainly would have played barn dances on it too. They were generally far more adept at musicianship than many of today's players. Who often tend to play in one genre pretty much exclusively.
groyster1
3414 posts
Aug 05, 2019
5:50 AM
I understand what you are saying but the great blues players from the past played marine bands and old standbys which created classics with their harps tuned to just intonation....I realize there are other types of music to be played on harp but for playing blues JI has the best sound for my taste
Tuckster
1707 posts
Aug 05, 2019
8:10 AM
I find that I like or dislike various brands and models of harps more on their tuning than hole spacing,comb material,etc. For blues 19JI just sings and sounds more like what the old masters were doing. I've never tried a 7 Limit harp,but I suspect I'd love it for blues,but it might be limiting in other genres of music.I've entertained the thought of having two sets of harps,one tuned to 19JI and the other tuned to a moderate compromise. Alas,I have yet to hit the lottery!
barbequebob
3604 posts
Aug 05, 2019
9:52 AM
Until the Golden Melody was introduced in 1974, the ONLY diatonic harps that used equal temperament were those that were solo tuned, meaning tuned up like a chromatic, which, with a few exceptions, were always tuned to equal temperament and until (in the USA anyway) around 1982, the standard out of the box tuning was in 7 limit just intonation until Huang introduced their entire line of diatonics that used 19 limit just intonation.

Unless they were playing chromatics or solo tuned diatonics like the original Marine Band Soloist/School Band model, ALL of the stuff the old masters used were all out of the box tuned harps that were tuned to 7 limit just intonation. All of the stuff both Walters and both Sonny Boys played all used harps tuned to 7LJI>

19LJI, if you're going to stuff past 3rd position frequently, is more versatile and whenever you get a custom harp, unless you specify otherwise, if you ask for just intonation, they will automatically tune it to 19LJI (and the Joe Spiers customs default tuning is in 19LJI and he says so directly on his website).

Bear in mind, when the harmonica was originally invented in the mid-1800's, they were ONLY designed for 1st position playing and note bends and overblows were NEVER part of the design at all and these techniques were all developed by the players and NOT the harp makers.

Just intonation has smoother, sweeter, fatter, more harmonious chords and double stops and equal temperament is mainly for those who don't do any of these things at all. However, equal temp-erament harps are extremely unforgiving and if you play chords with harps tuned this way, the harder you play them, the lousier they will sound because you will hear a HUGE amount of odd numbered upper harmonic overtones, which makes them very harsh sounding and dissodent to the human ear. Pianos are tuned equal, but with a caveat, one of them being is that the hammer striking the strings is placed very carefully so that it is also damper to the odd numbered upper harmonic overtones, which allows that tuning to work properly for chords, but with harmonicas, unless they're valved like a chromatic, you don't have that luxury at all. Also pianos uses what's referred to as stretch tuning, meaning that each octave higher or lowere is 2 cents sharper than where middle C starts on the piano, meaning that the first octave above or below middle C is tuned 2 cents sharp, the 2nd above or below is 4 cents sharp, etc., and it's the only way the chords work out in ET on a piano.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Grey Owl
992 posts
Aug 05, 2019
10:03 AM
What a cracking post BBQ. Thanks.

Grey Owl
YouTube
dougharps
1994 posts
Aug 05, 2019
10:18 AM
Barbecue Bob Maglinte is an outstanding resource to this forum and diatonic players!

I mentioned above that "I have a chart with the different tuning temperaments on different harps."

That chart was provided by Bob and is available here:

https://www.modernbluesharmonica.com/harmonica-tunings.html

Thanks, Bob, for all you have offered this group and players everywhere!

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Doug S.
Spderyak
287 posts
Aug 05, 2019
10:29 AM
I know I used to be all concerned about what tuning my harps were and what brand they were etc.
Esp in the early days, but I find now I just don't care that much. I have enough harps now that if one doesn't sound right for a song I grab another that does.

perhaps over simplified but that's about it for me.
groyster1
3415 posts
Aug 05, 2019
2:35 PM
yes barbq bob rocks.....I don't know from nothing.....but love my older than dirt marine bands tuned to 7JI and custom marine bands tuned to 19 JI......never take golden melodys to blues jam......only good for single note playing
Kingley
4131 posts
Aug 07, 2019
1:10 AM
I agree BBQ Bob is a great mine of information and I prefer 7 Limit JI when playing blues. Although it has to be said that the ET tuning of Golden Melody's certainly didn't stop the great Sonny Terry who used lots of chords in his playing, from playing blues on them. He always sounded great using both JI and ET tuned harps. Even though we all have our preferences when it comes to tunings. I suspect that ultimately as usual, it's the Indian and not the bow that makes the biggest difference.

Last Edited by Kingley on Aug 07, 2019 1:11 AM
The Iceman
3896 posts
Aug 07, 2019
4:27 AM
BBQ Bob is very accurate in his temperament info - the only correction I would offer is in regards to pianos (was a very active piano tech for 40 years - tuned for many famous pianists)..the stretch tuning he describes was not the original standard tuning.

It was introduced to "correct" the very human ear perception that higher octaves, when tuned in perfect octaves, sound a little flat, even though they are spot on technically.

The stretching as one goes up the keyboard adjusts for this, and the fact that the octaves will now begin to have "beats" when played as an octave in the right hand, (since the sustain on the higher strings will get shorter and shorter), becomes a moot point as there really is no time for the ear to perceive them.

The "stretching" into the bass section gives the piano tech the ability to deal with the more complex overtone relationships and he can find a compromise between no beats in the fundamental which causes the 1st and 2nd overtones to interact slightly ugly or smoothing out these relationships to the slight detriment of the fundamentals.
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The Iceman

Last Edited by The Iceman on Aug 07, 2019 4:30 AM
snowman
480 posts
Aug 11, 2019
6:42 PM
Really informative video----Thanks for posting it

I now have charts for everything except

THE TUNINGS FOR EACH COMPANY
IE; Hohner
Mb 442hz 7 limit
crossover 443hz compromise
Gm 442 octave tuned

Lee oscar
Ricter 444hz 7 imit etc etc etc


i made up the hz and tunings randomly as example

I would love this chart if available on [1 page] not having to go from the seydell site to the hohner sight etc

Ive always tuned to octave but---cuz I do a lot of splits--- Im thinking about switching to 7 limit or compromise—for more bluesy and chords

Any way thanks for post

When u gonna go on bluescruise??????

set up booth or a clinic instructional time???

we need more people like u, with a sense of humor


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