Butterfield fan
25 posts
May 08, 2019
4:58 AM
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Hey all, I have decided to make some tweaks to my bassman 59 amp LTD.
My thoughts are to follow what Eurotubes say
https://www.eurotubes.com/store/pc/Fender-59-Bassman-Reissue-for-Harp-114p331.htm
this kit includes a matched pair of the JJ 6L6GC's, a GZ34 rectifier, a standard ECC81 for V1, a standard ECC83S for V2 and an ECC832 for V3. This gets you more volume before feedback, good headroom and accentuates the odd harmonics necessary for a great harp sound.
2 questions for you guys has anyone done this and were you happy? Also I want to replace the speakers, should I replace them all or just some of them? What should I replace them with?
Thanks
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jbone
2916 posts
May 08, 2019
5:33 AM
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I don't know about the kit above. I simply put a 12au7 in P3 on mine and it tamed the feedback a lot. I used either a crystal or cm mic with that amp. I do know, when I had that Bassman built, Steve Clark of Sligo Amps put 2 10's in which would do high volume well and 2 10's which would break up at low volume. This was so the amp could be used in smaller settings or big settings/outdoors and be heard and perform well either way. As for specific speaker for specific function there are much more savvy guys here who can give you better answers.
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Music and travel destroy prejudice.
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barbequebob
3575 posts
May 08, 2019
8:43 AM
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in the very first preamp slot, the tube that SHOULD be there that a REAL '59 Bassman has is a 12AY7 and the power tubes should be 5881's, which are shorter botle tubes that have more midrange and bottom end than 6L6's will. JJ now has both of them but as far as I know, it's not in that package.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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Harpaholic
943 posts
May 08, 2019
4:45 PM
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Matched set of Russian 6L6 winged C are what I use and are proven to be one of the best for a Bassman. Unfortunately out of production.
I like the Tungsol reissues a lot.
12AT7 in V3, it's technically the best tube for the phase inverter. Perfer Nos Jan Philips.
12AY or 5751 in V1 and V2. You could also try a 12AT7. I Prefer Nos Jan Philips or Sylvania.
Do not use 12AU at all especially in V3!.
You could damage the amp!
Any good GZ34 is fine.
I buy all my tubes tested
Bias the amp and your good to go!
Bottom speakers 2 eminence legend Alnico's, no question!
Are you on West coast by chance?
Last Edited by Harpaholic on May 08, 2019 4:59 PM
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Lou
64 posts
May 08, 2019
6:42 PM
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Hi BF, before you go modding a Bassman check out Dave Barrets Bassman Chronicles. I'd google it & if you can't find it it's probably worth joing His site for a month about $17.00 and reading up on it.
Power tubes will only affect tone & then only when you start driving them to about 30-40% JJ's are good just bias them very cool
Rectifer tube will only affect tone and not a lot and to me it sounds like something is wrong with the amp when you switch out that tube but some guys like that sound.
Pre amp tubes is where you get the most benefit if your looking to fight feedback.
And if your looking for a change in tone your speakers is going to trump all and really make a huge difference. I'm a big fan of Weber's due to there tone, quality & price & you can call them up and talk speakers with them. I ended up with a custom 40 watt tube amp based on 59 Bassman Tweed circuit but went with 2 10" speakers instead of 4 used 1 Aleinco magnet Hemp cone for smooth warm break up and 1 ceramic magnet for some punch to cut through the mix.
Good Luck with your project
Lou
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SuperBee
5950 posts
May 09, 2019
2:47 AM
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That series on Bluesharmonica.com is very good. The only reservation I have about it is because it’s quite heavily focused on Dsvid and Gary’s approach it might not be right for everyone. They do address most of the things that make a difference though, and go into the potential danger of tube swaps drawing too much for the stock resistors and how to fix that. So even though the solution they come up with might not be exactly right for someone playing a different style I think you’ll get a lot of insight into the amp and the things you can change and the difference it makes.
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Butterfield fan
26 posts
May 09, 2019
3:24 AM
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Thanks all so when you are speaking about Bias the amp do i still need to do that if i just replace the speakers and the Valve in V1? if i am bias cold what is the setting - i read somewhere between 71 - 90?
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SuperBee
5951 posts
May 09, 2019
5:18 AM
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You won’t need to bias it when you change a preamp tube.
We are talking about the power tube bias.
You might not need to rebias it at all, but if you change the power tubes you probably should check the bias.
And you might want to change the bias even if you don’t change power tubes.
Cold and hot are relative terms. There’s no setting it has to be, although there is a recommended range.
Setting bias is one of the things I was thinking about when I wrote the post above. If you watch that video where Mark Overman and Dave Barret play around with the bias of Dave’s amp it gives
pretty good insight into it. I think Mark is using some specialty testing equipment in that scene to make it easy to illustrate the point. They demonstrate the difference at a range of settings. None are wrong but they are different and it depends what you’re chasing.
Mark is saying the range is probably between 18 - 45 milliamp per tube. I reckon the numbers you quoted are for total draw of both tubes.
He has installed a pot to make the adjustment easy. I think it’s a 50k pot but you can find all this stuff with a search.
I used to run my Deville very cold but after a while I got sick of the dirt and wanted more clarity and definition so I turned it up.
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barbequebob
3576 posts
May 09, 2019
9:48 AM
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one thing you people should bear in mind is that the JJ retube kit for a reissue Bassman is for THE FIRST EDITION, which came with a solid state rectifier tube and the LTD already HAS a 5ar4/gz34 rectifier tube in it already.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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Butterfield fan
27 posts
May 10, 2019
12:56 AM
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Thanks all great advice as always. Been in touch with Weber they have recommended the following for speakers
https://www.tedweber.com/10a125-o
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barbequebob
3577 posts
May 10, 2019
8:19 AM
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Those Weber speakers blow those HORRIBLE reissue Jensens away by a mile. The Webers nail the REAL Jensen sound quite easily. Inthe earlier version of Bassman RI, the now discontinued Menence Legend 102's that were used on them had the Jensen sound nailed better than the reissues from Jensen just on one MAJOR fact alone, and that is that Emimence had used the very same speaker paper that was used on the originals and the wrong paper alone can alter the sound of a speaker.
If you want the sound of a REAL'59 Bassman, from preamp to recitifier tube, this is what should be in there:
12ay7-12ax7-12ax7-5881-5881-5ar4/gz34.
EH and JJ both make 12ay7's but the better of the wo is JJ (unless you want to pay the cash for NOS, which are still better tubes).
For 12ax7's, you would want either like a long JJ, Mullard reissue, or any of the Tung Sol reissues (BTW, Tung Sol was the original vender of all Fender tweed and early Gibson amps).
For 5881's, I'd get either the JJ, Tung Sol reissues or the TAD 6l6wgc-str, which is basically a copy of the 50's to mid 60's GE 6l6's, that were bassically relabeled 5881's and real 5881's have a shorter bottle and they have less treble and better bottem end and mids.
I've owned the real deal '59 Bassman since 1983 and should know the difference quite easily.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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The Iceman
3846 posts
May 10, 2019
10:07 AM
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All this tube talk reminds me of when I used to work for Electronic Supply of Pontiac, MI, as their delivery man - taking tubes to all the tv/radio repair shops that existed everywhere in the 70's (remember them?).
I used to help pick orders from the bins and bins of electronic parts - a WALL of tube bins, with all those 6L6's, 12ax7, 12au7, etc etc etc. We even had that tube tester to test tubes - remember them? They used to be found in drug stores for the public to use!
Thanks for the memories....
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The Iceman
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Butterfield fan
28 posts
May 11, 2019
1:57 AM
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barbequebob thanks very much for all your help great post!. I am better replacing all the speakers or just the bottom 2?
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hvyj
3697 posts
May 11, 2019
5:49 AM
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I’ve used the Eurotubes kit in my Super Reverb RI. The people at Eurotubes are knowledgeable and the replacement tube kit is good. BUT, I find the JJ ECC 83MG sounds MUCH better for harp than the JJ ECC 83S. Also, in my SRRI, the JJ ECC 823 sounded better in the PI slot than the JJ ECC 832.
Last Edited by hvyj on May 11, 2019 7:07 AM
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barbequebob
3578 posts
May 11, 2019
8:21 AM
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@Butterfield fan -- The jensen reissues are HORRIBLE and replace them all and I would HIGHLY recommend the Weber 10A125's, which nails the REAL sound of the the original Jensens far better. The Jensen reissues look right cosmeticaly but that's where it ends and the Jensen RI's uses two things the real deal doesn't use and that's the plastic in its assembly and the speaker paper, the glue and the glueing technique isn't correct and those things as subtle as they are, plays a huge role in how it sounds.
I own the real deal, so I definitely KNOW the difference.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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tomaxe
160 posts
May 13, 2019
7:55 AM
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I'm not the expert on this like a lot of the posters here, but I'll add my .02 if it helps:
My Bassman build from the Weber kit has a custom speaker configuration: 2 Weber Sig10A-S, 1 Weber Sig10A, and on the bottom right—looking at the back of the amp—a Weber 10F150 (says "Ferromax" on the back). This was the mix recommended to me from the late Ted Weber, probably more than 12 years ago. I emailed him and he got back to me several times, a really helpful, nice guy. RIP.
I have never looked back. I love the sound and it is ridiculously loud. That Weber 10F150 really gives a nice bottom end to the sound.
I have found over time, for me, that the only real tube swap needed was a lower gain tube in the far right position looking at the back of the amp: a 12AY. Anything else tended to make things muddy or underpowered.
To my ears, the speakers are what makes the most difference.
For what it's worth, I once tried that unbalanced Phase Inverter tube idea from Eurotubes once on this amp, and the difference was negligible. I also found that the 12AT type tubes were like an "in betweener" tube for both my Bassman-style amp and a Fender Pro Junior...neither giving me the punch of a 12AX or the smooth rounder tone/more volume knob play of a 12AY.
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BnT
242 posts
May 15, 2019
1:32 PM
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I have a '59 Bassman RI. Bought used, replaced the speakers putting two Eminence blue frame alnicos on top, and a Weber 10A125-0 (smooth cone) and a 10F125-0 (ribbed cone) on the bottom. It gives a nice mix of crunch and early break-up with plenty of bass. Added a bias pot. Tubes, all NOS - Tung Sol 5881's, and various brands 12AY7, 12AU7, and 12AT7. I think the rectifier is an old 5R4 that came out of a Hammond organ. So it's probably tubed-down to about 38w. I usually play it with channels jumped and use a Boss FRV-1 Fender Reverb Pedal. Used it recently as a house harp amp at jams with an Astatic 200 with a CR black label and haven't been any feedback issues or complaints from the guys who have used it.
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BnT
www.BluesWithAFeelin.com
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Joe_L
2869 posts
May 16, 2019
10:20 AM
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BnT - Thanks for reminding me. I meant to talk to you about that amp. It sounded very nice.
The Jensen Reissue speakers in the LTD are awful. I owned one for a while and decided to sell it rather than pay the price to replace the speakers. I was going to look for an older model with the blue frame Eminence. Those sound fabulous when the speakers are broken in. I ended my search when I picked up a used Sonny Jr Super Sonny.
Last Edited by Joe_L on May 16, 2019 10:24 AM
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barbequebob
3582 posts
May 17, 2019
8:16 AM
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@BnT -- '59 Bassmans had 5ar4/gz34 and a 5rf is an eniterly DIFFERENT tube altogether.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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Butterfield fan
31 posts
Jun 24, 2019
1:24 AM
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Bob going with your recommendation for tubes. one question for the 12Ay what is the difference between factory tested and balanced (Matched). which would should it be - thanks
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SuperBee
6029 posts
Jun 24, 2019
1:49 AM
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“Matched” is really an issue for power tubes when they need to operate in a push-pull pair. I’ve never seen it referred to for preamp tubes
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Butterfield fan
32 posts
Jun 24, 2019
2:12 AM
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Thanks Superbee
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barbequebob
3591 posts
Jun 24, 2019
9:38 AM
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Super Bee is 100% correct regarding preamp tubes. Also preamp tubes do NOT need to be rebiasing because all preamp tubes are self biasing but for power and recitifer tubes, that's an entirely different story altogether.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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Butterfield fan
33 posts
Jul 15, 2019
9:13 AM
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I bought the weber speakers but i cant fit the 4 in! I can fit 2 in the bottom but not the top as the back of the speakers stops you fitting on the control panel.........man im annoyed, anything i can do here?
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barbequebob
3594 posts
Jul 15, 2019
9:36 AM
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The bell covers, which is what you're taling about, were used in the original Jensens in the Bassmans and they're strictly cosmetic and can be easily removed, which is exactly what Fender did back then so don't freak out over it. Those covers don't do anything for the sound at all.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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Butterfield fan
34 posts
Jul 15, 2019
12:14 PM
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BBQ Bob your a legend!!! Cheers
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Harpaholic
947 posts
Jul 16, 2019
6:23 AM
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Matched/balanced preamp tubes refers to the triodes in the tube so each side of the tube has equal gain.
I buy only matched preamp tubes.
Last Edited by Harpaholic on Jul 16, 2019 6:24 AM
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