Gnarly
2565 posts
Oct 27, 2018
11:13 AM
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Hey everybody--
It occurs to me that I haven't broken a reed since I don't know when.
I am not you, and so I ask?
How's your rate of reed failure?
The two I mentioned are notorious, share your experience.
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ME.HarpDoc
339 posts
Oct 27, 2018
12:47 PM
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Broke two 4 draw and one 5 draw about 3-4 years ago when i was learning to bend. Saw BBQ Bob's posts back then about breath force and haven't broken a reed since ( if you don't count a blow 8 I bent when I slipped adjusting the pitch with a hand file). All three draw reeds were on Hohner Big Rivers.
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The Iceman
3693 posts
Oct 27, 2018
2:52 PM
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draw reeds breaking is MOSTLY due to bending "through the floor" which is another definition of excessive force.
If people had learned about this factor when they were starting out, Hohner would have sold a lot less harmonicas over the years!
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The Iceman
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SuperBee
5626 posts
Oct 27, 2018
4:33 PM
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Over 18 months since I needed replace a reed in a harp of my own. There were 2 I think in that 6 month period and was a couple years, maybe 30 months breakage free prior to that. So 2 reeds in 4 years I think.
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jbone
2731 posts
Oct 27, 2018
8:15 PM
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It's been a long time since I actually broke one off. I did crack a reed on an Eastop A about 2 1/2 years ago. Generally I flat a reed out and notice it before it comes apart these days. Usually it's when I get carried away playing acoustic outdoors and the feeling just comes over me. Bad habit. A harmonica can only get just so loud. Resonance is much better than pure force.
Back in "the day" I typically took out a 4 or 5 draw about once a month or even more often. Dark days. Way before I began actually learning to play with focus and not force.
Somewhat related, I used to blow out my voice very badly trying to hear myself sing with loudass bands. This was the era of the most harp mortality as well, in the 90's. The problem was interrelated. My lesson became, play and sing with volume appropriate to the setting and inly to the limits of the harp or voice. Use the amp or p.a. to get sound out. Work in settings where I could hear myself so I wouldn't try playing or singing louder just so I could hear myself.
I vowed to choose more carefully who I work with and how loud we play. Working in the duo, we keep it only as loud as needed. I still flat a reed here and there but nothing like I used to.
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Music and travel destroy prejudice.
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jbone
2732 posts
Oct 27, 2018
8:16 PM
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Last Edited by jbone on Oct 28, 2018 5:11 AM
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AppalachiaBlues
224 posts
Oct 28, 2018
2:34 AM
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2013. I was playing with a band that got way too loud, causing me to play much louder than normal. The 4 draw broke on a MB Crossover, key of D.
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florida-trader
1376 posts
Oct 28, 2018
8:42 AM
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Personally, I have blown out maybe 3 or 4 reeds in my entire life. None in the past 4 or 5. I've been playing for 46 years. OF the harps I repair for customers, the 5 draw and 7 blow are the two most common that I see.
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Tom Halchak
Blue Moon Harmonicas
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dougharps
1854 posts
Oct 28, 2018
9:05 AM
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Lately I have had to retune the 1 and 4 blow on a couple Hohner harps. I guess I have been hitting octaves on those notes too hard...
In the past before working to moderate my breath force the draw 4 and draw 5 were occasionally problematic for me. Once a few yeas back despite having improved I sat in on a loud stage with poor monitoring had the same D Crossover reed failure noted above by AppalachiaBlues. Over the course of decades of playing, Hohner D harps have been the most likely to fail me.
On my Hering chromatics, the blow 5 and 9 "C" notes have needed retuning and once, a replacement on a 9 blow.
If you get carried away on a loud stage and blow or draw too hard, there is a price to pay. I believe that in those loud circumstances my Manjis seem to take the abuse without reed failure better than my Crossovers.
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Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Oct 28, 2018 9:09 AM
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robbert
482 posts
Oct 28, 2018
9:55 AM
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It’s been several years now since I’ve had a reed fracture. I do need to retune every once in a while, but not often. I credit this to long term playing with the same musicians where the the sound is really dialed in, and adjustable to be able to hear ourselves in most playing situations. That and breath control.
As far as harps go, I’ve basically converted to using mostly Manjis for their reliability, especially unplugged. It took some work on my part to modify them, but once adjusted for playability, they seem indestructible.
That being said, I also use Xovers, Sp 20s, MBs and BRs, all modified to some extent.
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The Iceman
3694 posts
Oct 28, 2018
10:07 AM
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There is no reason to let excessive volume surrounding you force you to play outside of the norm...
Personally, if I find myself in that situation, I just stop playing.
Learn to let the equipment do your shouting for you!
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The Iceman
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dougharps
1855 posts
Oct 28, 2018
12:58 PM
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@The Iceman
You are correct about "bending through the floor" and that there is a choice to make. You can choose to step down after being invited to the stage if you discover a poor mic/monitor setup. I did not want to step down, so I took a chance.
I knew before going on stage that my favorite local Chicago style blues band was a loud band with loud stage volume. I made the mistake of thinking that the backup vocal mic and monitor would work out OK for playing a couple of songs with my new Crossover. The owner of the venue who intermittently adjusts the board was nowhere to be seen, likely in the kitchen.
It is predictable that if you hammer a Hohner, especially a Crossover, with too much force, you may flatten or ruin a reed. I gambled and lost. My decision, my consequence.
The last time I played with this band through the PA the band called for the owner to adjust the PA so I could hear and be heard. It worked out fine.
Since wrecking my Crossover that time I now take Manjis, not Crossovers, to play with them or with other louder bands with whom I have an open invitation to sit in. Often I now play through my "sit-in amp" when I play with them, so I can control my volume and PA adjustment is not an issue.
Returning to the original post, I probably have to replace a reed or buy plates for a Hohner harp once or twice a year at most these days. This is very much improved over my stats 20 years ago, when I often played excessive force, wrecking Hohners and Lee Oskars. In the last few years I have been moving toward using Manjis for loud music.
BarbequeBob's scoldings on MBH, economics, Manjis, and learning to set up harps with tighter gaps have helped use less force and preserve my reeds. With tighter gaps in order to overbend 4, 5, and 6, I have learned to take it easier in order to avoid choking notes while playing solos. Choking notes to nothing during a solo teaches moderation by providing immediate musical consequences.
Given a quieter venue, I still prefer the responsiveness of well set up Hohner Spec20s, MBDs, Crossovers, and customs to the harder action of Manjis.
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Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Oct 28, 2018 1:09 PM
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groyster1
3266 posts
Oct 28, 2018
4:24 PM
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Ive broken 2 suzuki folk masters......but they have very thin reeds.......and are cheap harps made in china........I tread lightly on harps.......as little breath force as possible
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JSalow
47 posts
Oct 29, 2018
12:38 PM
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I've never broken either. I don't tend to play too hard. I gap very close and play lightly.
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groyster1
3267 posts
Oct 29, 2018
4:57 PM
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only play good harps and dont buy junk
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John M G
272 posts
Oct 29, 2018
5:58 PM
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I've blown every 5 draw on the 4 Seydel 1847 Silvers I bought 3-4 years ago G,A,Bb & D. Some from how loud the band was and some simply because I was probably blowing too hard. I did the same on 2 Crossovers, a G & F again because the band had got louder and louder.
But I have yet to blow a Manji reed playing with the same band!
I like the tone of both the Seydel and Crossovers and will use them for certain songs but I'm inclined to think they are less robust than the Manji harmonicas.
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garry
739 posts
Oct 29, 2018
6:52 PM
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Actually, just last week. Discovered it as we started Work Song, no spare. A make it work moment.
But in general, rarely. After burning through a few harps when I was newer, I learned to play soft. As Jason says, "let the amp do the work".
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Gnarly
2567 posts
Oct 29, 2018
9:49 PM
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Volume seems to be a big factor!
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SuperBee
5628 posts
Oct 29, 2018
11:58 PM
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i'm sure it is but i think bending is also part of the story, or maybe its just extra air pressure applied during the bend.
i have just repaired 6 sp20s and 5 MBDs. 5 of the 20s needed 5 draw replaced and 4 of the MBDs. in the other MBD 5 draw was flat but had already been replaced. i couldn't find an obvious defect in the reed; plinked it multiple hundreds of times and it settled half a semitone flat. usually a reed this flat would be an automatic discard but this one showed no signs of having lost its spring, and when i tuned it up it stayed in tune. ive never encountered anything quite like it so im going to revisit it before i decide its fixed. i'll propably just replace it anyway. For the sake of 5 minutes and a $2 reed versus the postage, i think its not worth the risk
but anyway...
one of these customers i know makes a lot of use of 4/5 shake and bend. i reckon the 5 is getting bent during this process, as well as the 4. and there is a lot of bending pressure applied to the 4; i've heard recordings and seen video, there is a lot of air in play.
sometimes i remove these bad reeds and while they are intact with no fracture to be seen (at least with naked eye + magnifying glass), i can sometimes see a kink. like the reed has swung so far with such force it has been deformed.
i'm not sure what happens exactly. i know when we play a double reed bend, like a standard draw bend, the initial part of the bend comes from slowing down the draw reed, then the blow reed takes over. in an 'extreme' bend (ie 'through the floor')does the draw reed stall? and if it does stall, does it stall in the fully open position? seems to me that it could, especially if a lot of breath is flowing. could it be held fully open, even a little wider than its natural inclination to swing, resulting in this little kink line i sometimes notice?
that doesn't really explain the 7 blow.
i had a job once, which involved over a dozen G harp all of which needed 7 blow. all one player, and one song he had performed in his act for a long time. i think these were all his harps from a decade or so.
(incidentally, 7 blow in a Hohner handmade (Hh) G harp is the same reed as 5 draw in a Hh D harp, so if you are looking to reuse reeds thats a handy match. 7 draw in a Ab is the same reed but finding a broken Ab is more difficult. taking the 7 draw from an A harp and using it to replace 5 draw of a D harp is very feasible; you just have to tune it down a semitone, which is very doable)
Joe Spiers has or had some discussion on his page about broken reeds and made a very good point that the most often bent reeds on the harp are the 2 and 3 chambers, so if broken reeds were all about bending it would be reasonable to think these would go bad fairly often, and yet they seldom do.
iirc, joe goes on to suggest that it is bending to/through the floor which is more likely to blame.
i think this is all getting toward the answer but perhaps it is the combination of bending to the floor with a lot of breath force.
an afterthought: i don't see a lot of bad reeds from the high end of harps, but i think its far less common for people to play the high end. i have had to replace a 9 chamber reed for myself and a bunch of 8, 9 and 10 chamber reeds for a seydel endorsed player.
so the 7 stands out as an oddball to me. the other common broken reeds i can associate with forceful bending (i.e. the 5 through getting involved in the shake with bend) but the 7 i don't really understand.
on the other hand, i have only ever seen that one example of broken 7 reeds (albeit many times but it all related to a single player an a particular song)
ok, those are the thoughts of chairman me-o on broken reeds for today.
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groyster1
3269 posts
Oct 30, 2018
8:16 AM
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good post superbee......I dont play first position much.....if I did there would be more 7 blow and 10 blow
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BronzeWailer
2074 posts
Oct 31, 2018
5:01 AM
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A few years. I was breaking one a month it seemed at first, but have taken BBQ Bob's (and others') consistent advice to heart.
When I was taking singing lessons, my teacher said to me one day, "Sounds like you're trying to fill the room with volume rather than resonance." Made me think and act.
BronzeWailer's YouTube
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barbequebob
3550 posts
Oct 31, 2018
8:55 AM
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@Bronze Wailer -- You just stated one of the very important reasons why I HIGHLY recommend that ALL harp players go to a reputable vocal coach and the very first things every one of them will check out is your breathing and relaxation technique and you'll find along the way that may vocal techniques applies to harp playing as well and they will teach you to get the greatest volume, resonance, and projection using the LEAST amount of breath force necessary and eventually you will almost never get winded. Both vocal AND harp tone will be bigger, fatter and rounder because along the way you will learn to emphasize the even-numbered harmonic overtones rather than the odd numbered ones that most people tend to do when they play too hard which results in a really thin, tinny, downright harsh sound that's often totally unpleasant for the audience to hear.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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dunn.andy
20 posts
Nov 01, 2018
2:21 AM
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Last night actually
On a Blues Harp D
Hammering Adam Gussow Bugie Blues lick heavey on bent 4s and I was making a racket and having a ball
Had that Harp 6 months and love the sound so play it a lot and hard
Not sure to pat myself on the back or kick my own ass
Reading above it seems to be a balance
( oh didn’t actually break off just cracked and when I opened it up to investigate it would not ping so tried a few more pings etc and fell off)
Last Edited by dunn.andy on Nov 01, 2018 3:02 AM
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groyster1
3271 posts
Nov 01, 2018
6:47 AM
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harp dead after only 6 months to me is totally unacceptable......using least breath force possible makes for very best tone......Ive blown out 2 suzuki folkmasters......china made and very thin reeds.....
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dougharps
1856 posts
Nov 01, 2018
8:19 AM
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"using least breath force possible makes for very best tone"
Maybe... but remember, generalizations may have exceptions.
I tend to be a devil's advocate. I am concerned about a general condemnation here of hard playing (with the resulting damage to harps) as always resulting in inferior tone. Obviously hard playing can sound bad. It can also be an expensive option. I don't think hard playing should be dismissed as casually as it seems to be here. I am not advocating everyone blowing like hell. I agree that playing softer allows for more dynamics, subtleties of tone, and longer lasting harps.
With regard to harmonica manufacturers, I don't find easily damaged reeds to be acceptable. But that doesn't mean that all damaged reeds result from poor manufacturing. Even well made harps have structural limits that hard playing can exceed. It also doesn't mean that reed failure is the result of someone not knowing how to play. Some players who were really good played hard and damaged harps in pursuit of their music. I think that different harps are better for different purposes.
Historically, hard players apparently found it acceptable to damage and discard harps while playing gigs, and considered it part of their music business costs. James Cotton reportedly acknowledged and accepted his harps only lasting a few songs before being discarded. This information is found in a thread on MBH with a post by MP and a link to a Wall Street Journal article in which Cotton discussed his wrecking of harps. In my opinion James Cotton played great harp. And apparently often he played hard, too.
NOTE: I am pleased that since moderating my breath force I ruin fewer reeds these days. Also, I am a believer in using dynamics. Learning to play with less breath helps in playing with dynamics. I have deliberately worked to play with lighter breath, and have succeeded. I am pleased with the results. I think it is foolish to unnecessarily wreck harps.
I agree that hard players often can lose tone. But that doesn't mean that we as harp players should unanimously dismiss all hard playing as poor playing.
TRUTH: If we just look at our harmonicas and never breathe through them to make music, they will last indefinitely! We could brag that we never damaged a reed.
I believe in moderation with regard to moderation. Sometimes hard playing can be effective in making our music. I take precautions and accept that there may be a price. If I think that I may play hard in a situation, I use harps that are better able to handle hard playing.
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Doug S.
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John M G
276 posts
Nov 18, 2018
12:51 AM
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Today. I couldn't hear myself and blew my A crossover 5 hole draw :(
Haven't blown a read for a long while. I should have known better. Ah well.
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SuperBee
5655 posts
Nov 18, 2018
12:56 AM
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I fix them, John. $15.
Postage is a tax though. Most folk save up 4 or 5 and send me all at once to make efficient use of the postage: costs as much to send 1 as it does to send 500grams
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SweetBlood
88 posts
Nov 18, 2018
2:19 AM
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The only reeds that I have ever broken have been the 5 blow. I actually broke several of them too. The last time it happened, I played it acoustic with some friends who were amplified.
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John M G
277 posts
Nov 18, 2018
3:08 AM
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Hi Dave, I've been saving them up and have a few. I'll get them together and off to you. Cheers John
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jbone
2750 posts
Nov 18, 2018
6:53 AM
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Doug, good post there, I agree with you. I used to kill a lot of harps in a year's time, mostly SP20 4 or 5 draw reeds but also others as well. It was not cheap I had one night where I blew up 5 of my total 7 harps. Pretty much spent 2 night's pay.
Focus is superior to straight up force imo. I have tried to adopt this philosophy and it has been working for a few years now. Not that I don't get carried away, sometimes I do kill a reed or two, but the frequency is a lot less in recent years.
Gnarly just repaired two of my harps and did a fine job. Thanks Gnarly and keep up the quality work! If I can get more duration out of a harp it makes for a slightly more lucrative avocation. It's also much less hassle.
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Music and travel destroy prejudice.
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Andrew
1823 posts
Nov 21, 2018
7:53 AM
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I've seen it written that physics makes the 5-draw problematic, and you shouldn't bend it, but I disagree. I think it's just people forcing it too much - the 5 blow is only a semitone lower, so you shouldn't try to bend the 5 draw more than 3/4 of a semitone, especially if you try force rather than technique.
Last Edited by Andrew on Nov 21, 2018 7:54 AM
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The Iceman
3711 posts
Nov 21, 2018
8:40 AM
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It's obvious that the problem is "lack of understanding bending to the floor".
The "note room" for 5 hole is much shorter than other "note rooms", so people that just bend through the floor as a general bad habit will smash that 5 hole floor to pieces - like taking a sledge hammer to a particle board floor.
Once one has learned incorrect/inefficient bending techniques and uses them for years, it is very difficult to "unlearn" and "relearn" how to bend.
Result = lotsa money spent on buying or repairing harmonicas.
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The Iceman
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dchurch
204 posts
Nov 21, 2018
10:27 AM
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I might have cracked one reed in the past year, playing every day. I believe it was a 5d.
But, there was a period of time when I was cracking one or two per month. I’m sure it was from the abuse of learning bends more than going for volume. I cracked more 4 and 5 reeds than #3s during that time, which does seem odd because I worked a lot on the 3 hole bend. I learned to blow bend during this same time and don’t recall ever cracking those.
My Seydels were by far more fragile than Suzuki, Hohner, and Oskar harps.
I have never cracked a reed on my Oskar harps. I bought a few of them because of their reputation for being rugged. I often play the same Osker while mowing our field (which takes 3 hours). I wear hearing protection and tend to play louder than normal then.
Although I don’t crack reeds like I once did, I really don’t try to take it easy on them. I feel it was just part of my learning curve for figuring out bending technique. For some reason working with overblows hasn’t been cracking reeds.
To Iceman's point: I was recently doing a 3 hole bend exercise. Eyes closed with a tuner, then eyes open at each bend step. I learned very quickly that I have a tendency to over flatten my bends. Especially when hitting bends verses drawing down to them. I suspect that was an exaggerated problem during the cracked reed era. During that time I was often just trying bend DOWN rather than accurately aiming for a specific point.
IMO, If you having serious problems with cracked reeds buy some Lee Oskar harps while you are working on that.
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It's about time I got around to this.
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John M G
279 posts
Nov 21, 2018
3:24 PM
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For me, it's always 5 draw!
A note I never ever set out to bend.
But it's usually after a session when either I can't quite hear myself properly or when the band continually winds up the volume.
I should know better and just pull back and not play!
I can say, both Hohner and those 4 times longer duration Seydel stainless reeds sound great but are the most fragile in my experience!
I've had only the one Suzuki reed go and just about all my harps are now Manji's. I was seriously thinking of going back to Lee Oskar harps because of their durability but will continue with the Suzuki harps for now.
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