Well, I am supposed to sit in with a jazz band for a few instrumentals. I have never played with a hard core jazz band before and wondering what is the best position to play in for this setting. I can hold my own in first, second and third with a I, IV, V blues progression but, to me, jazz is a different beast. Any suggestions will be appreciated. Thanks.
I am afraid there is no satisfying answer to your question, because if it is a real "hard core" jazz band, you will have to stop thinking about the position system and look into keys and chords changes to figure your way out.
When I was trying to do this, I was equating the I chord with second position, VI with 5th, ii with 4th, V with 3rd, IV with 1st, III with 6th, VII with 12th and then learning to play the arpeggios major and minor and trying to follow the changes accordingly. Then I joined a blues band
Thollon and SuperBee-- Thank you so much for your advice. I think I may be in a little too far over my head. SuperBee, you are way, way, way above my level of playing. I know my limitations. I think my best bet is to back out as not to give harmonica players a bad name. I do not want to play if I cannot add anything positive to the sound. Thanks again for your replies--99.
if they're nice to you and give you a nice jazz blues you'll probably be fine. If it's Giant Steps you're pretty much f'd.
my advice would be learn chromatic (not that I can play jazz on a chrom but if you can play in all keys on a C chrom well you probably wouldn't be here asking haha) ---------- 4' 4+ 3' 2~~~ -Mike Ziemba Harmonica is Life!
slaphappy- that is a good option. I might have a fighting chance. I do play chromatic, just like 95% of the forum members, C chromatic in Dm Ha Ha -- Thanks-- 99
Yeah i think that i would bow out.I mean you can 'bluff' your way through most Blues/rock tunes but Jazz?You've got to have your shit together. But one thing.. have these guys heard you play? If they have they might think more of your chops than you do.In that case give it a go.
99, I did say ‘when I was trying’. I didn’t get very far, just far enough to have some insight into an approach which should work. I was just a couple weeks into teaching myself to sight read and using the chromatic when this blues band came along and since then it’s been 99% 2nd, 1st and 3rd, over 12 bars, 8 bars and 1 chord boogies. I did learn a bit about following changes though. I might try to pick it up again if this band stays broken (our guitar spot is suddenly empty)
I think the key is listening. You should "hear" where the changes are going. It doesn't matter a lot whether they're doing 12, 16, 24 bar or a 2-5-1; just listen and respond. I prefer 2nd and 3rd position for jazz. Also, don't be surprised if you're playing an Ab, Bb, Eb (or low Eb) or minor harp.
If you have time to do some listening and play along prior, consider these: ~ Red Top ~ Take the A-Train ~ Things Ain't What They Used To Be ~ Jumpin' With Symphony Sid ~ Night in Tunisia ~ One O'Clock Jump ~ Tenor Madness ~ T-Bone Shuffle ~ Donna Lee (backing track) ~ Jordu ~ 2-5-1 medium swing backing track - minor or major key
These are standards. You may find that you play along easily on lots of these. ---------- BnT
Last Edited by BnT on Sep 27, 2018 12:26 AM
Have these guys heard you play? As mentioned above if they have heard you they must have liked something. Just be honest and tell them that you haven't really played jazz but you are willing to try. Jazz players often times look down upon people who don't play the changes, but if it we're me I would just be upfront with my limitations and say "hey on most of these songs, I will only be able to play pentatonic and blues scales until I learn them." If they were ok with that I would give it a shot. If not I would just say sorry I don't really think I am qualified to do this at the moment.
I also play tenor and occassionally attempt some jazz stuff (not neccessarily very well!). What I would add is, if you haven't got time to get the changes down, knowing the melody really well helps. It kind of leads around the changes, and you can play about with it. If you mix that up with pentatonics/blues scale you can do quite a bit.
After all, chords are just bits of scales! ---------- Harpeaux Edwards
Don’t back out—this is how you grow as a musician. There’s quite a bit of soul jazz, hard bop and modal jazz that is very accessible on a diatonic. The trick is to know (hear) when the chord changes get too complex to handle on a harp and lay out—so you have to be selective about what and when you play.
Think SCALES and try to phrase like a horn would. Do NOT play many chords because the primitive chords and chord fragments on a diatonic harp probably won’t fit. Do NOT play licks—play lines comprised of notes. You will get good mileage from third position because there’s a lot of Dorian jazz material. But if you can’t handle minors, tell the band leader.
Try to learn some heads. A lot of Eddie Harris stuff is doable on harp—COLD DUCK TIME, for one. Also Herbie Hancock—WATER MELON MAN, CHAMELEON, CANTALOUPE ISLAND. On CI the changes get a little complicated but the head/melody is just a minor pentatonic scale. Check out Miles Davis: ALL BLUES is easily doable. SO WHAT is simple ( third position) but you need to use 2 harps. AFRO BLUE lays out perfectly in Third or Fourth position. ST. THOMAS (Sonny Rollins) lays out note for note in first position. FLY ME TO THE MOON is easily doable in first position. The trick is to phrase like a horn. MERCY, MERCY (Canonball Aderly) is also doable. The head to EQUINOX (Coltrane) lays out well in fourth position. Parts of FOOTPRINTS are playable.
Try it. You’ll certainly make mistakes, but you’ll learn a lot in the process. DON’T BE AFRAID TO LAY OUT. Pick your spots. Don’t over play and don’t play many chords.
I am emphasizing the use of scales and scale tones because it's safe. A good soloist will also utilize chord tones, but dealing with unfamiliar material can make chord identification a challenge, so to keep things manageable work off scales.
Btw, 12th position can be very useful for jazz. It's similar to third position. Personally, I am not much of a 12th position player, but it is good for certain jazz material.
Last Edited by hvyj on Sep 27, 2018 9:09 AM
This is a rough rehearsal recording that I think is a decent example of playing scale tones and phrasing like a horn. For a while I was playing in a duo with a black chick who sang and played piano and I had to learn her book of material which included some jazz standards. Here we are doing FLY ME TO THE MOON. I am working with a do-re-mi scale in first position. I am playing lines comprised of scale tones and trying to phrase like a horn and not playing harmonica type licks. Because it is a duo and her piano chops were somewhat limited I am playing a lot more than I would have with a full band, but the general approach is similar. FWIW.
Last Edited by hvyj on Sep 27, 2018 8:43 AM
I can't say i'm a big jazz player or anything, but if I'm doing a song like "All that Jazz" I try to take a portion of the melody line and play with that. mostly I try not to play into a dead end if i do...I just stop and pick it up where some changes come around and I give it another go. ..in the back of my mind I try to remember every space does not have to be filled with a note.
kind of depends on the folks you going to play with if they are big time improv or jazzin up some tunes or standards.
either way good luck
Last Edited by Spderyak on Sep 27, 2018 9:31 AM
This is based on my experiences in 2001 and 2002 when I ventured into playing jazz on diatonic and keyed chromatics.
I was invited to come to a three piece jazz band rehearsal that played a lot of Wes Montgomery and Horace Silver. I went to the practice for the fun of trying it out, and was then asked to join the band. While I am an improviser I am really not a "jazz musician" and make no claim to that level of musicianship.
This is some stuff that helped me get by and that I figured out by listening a lot and from friends. I listened to a lot of jazz to learn to hear changes, buying some CDs and going to the library a lot, too. The others in the band and some other musical friends of mine who had played jazz also helped.
If this is too simple, I apologize.
Jazz songs come in various structures. The beginning of the song is called the "head", the end is called the "out head". The solos are usually played over the chord progressions used in the head, though not always.
The time for the band to begin ending the song with the "out head" is sometimes cued by the band leader pointing to his/her head when the soloing is done.
Regarding the structure of the head, one common example would be the AABA pattern, though you are sure to encounter other patterns. The letters do not mean the key names of "A" and "B", but instead designate a certain chord progression for part of the song, one part named the "A" part and the other the "B" part. There could be "C", etc.
This use of a letter designation for a part of the song simplifies charts for songs with parts that repeat. In this AABA example it requires only that the A part and B part chord patterns be notated on a fake book chart. It also means that there are only two parts to learn, not four!
You don't have to read to play jazz.
Jazz is improvisational, and you will need to use your ear skills.
At home, listen to recordings of the same jazz songs they intend you to play. If you have a chord chart, you might look at the patterns of the chord changes as you listen, but mostly use your ears. Learn to HEAR the changes. You do not have to understand the names of the chords necessarily (unless you are already schooled in this), but the pattern and SOUND of the changes behind the melody of the head.
Then try out playing along with the recordings in various positions by ear, letting yourself make mistakes. You are exploring the changes and your harmonicas. There are no errors, just exploration to gather information. When you find a specific harmonica that works best for you on that song, make a note of the position you are using. If you are playing only diatonic harmonicas you might even consider using a second harp over one or more parts if it sounds better, for example, on the "B" part, which could be in a different key than the "A".
NOTE: Be sure to ask the band the key in which THEY will perform each piece, as keys are sometimes changed to suit the singer and the key the band calls may not be the same as on your recordings. That way if the band does the song in a different key you can still switch to a different key of harp that allows the same POSITION that worked for you.
Experiment over and over, find what works best on each song, make notes, and TRUST YOUR EAR!
EDIT: read "Jazz for Dummies" ----------
Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Sep 27, 2018 10:47 AM
Another thing you could do is give them a list of songs YOU want to play that have a jazzy element but are based in blues or funk. Work Song, Cissy Strut, etc.
Yes, as I think I mentioned in another thread, a lot of those classic 50's and 60s Blue Note Hard Bop and Soul Jazz albums often kick off with a bluesy groover such as Watermelon Man, The Sidewinder, etc. They're great for harp - and generally have a head based on the minor pentatonic.
If you check out the link below for my Bandcamp site - there's a version of Watermelon Man as an example of using diatonic harp on this. ---------- Harpeaux Edwards
Talk to them in advance and pick out a few tunes so you can work them out. hvyj pointed out a number of playable tunes, even ones I can play. Consider also Work Song and Listen Here.
I would hold off on bowing out until I got a list of songs they are planning. And if they are open to doing some stuff you can get through well. They must think something good of you or they would not have asked. Work Song, Return of the Funky Worm, St. James Infirmary, come immediately to mind. Kidney Stew.
Personally I'd hope for some swing style stuff, or rockabilly. ---------- Music and travel destroy prejudice.
I would say, based on your original question, you are looking at a train wreck with this opportunity. However, it appears that there is an audience that appreciates this type of entertainment, so I say go for it. ----------
Last Edited by JInx on Sep 28, 2018 12:05 PM
You can`t go wrong with the BLUES,Even with jazz changes,you can blow some blues and sound good.And the people ,there will dig it,too...Because blues is the heart of jazz,you can have a player running through all the chord tones ,and be right on every change, but without BLUES it will suck.
First, I would like to thank everyone for their contribution. I have a lot of work to do. I was able to talk to the keyboard player earlier today and explained that jazz is not my strong point, to say the least. He suggested that we do some blues as he has been a blues piano player for a long time, but jazz is what he is into now. He said it will be a good change of pace for the band too. I said that later on when the crowd thins out, I would try to sit in with a jazz number. He agreed. I feel this is a win win situation for me. Thanks again and I hope this thread will help others who may be in the same boat in the future.--99
No. Fly Me to the Moon STARTS on a minor chord (Em), but is not in a minor key. That is a common misconception. The key is based on the chord the tune RESOLVES to (C), not the chord it starts on.
You may be right about the available note choices on the low end, but I never played in the low register on that tune because I’m not all that confident playing in first position. I wound up playing quite a bit of First position with Melanie, as she did some pop tunes, some 50’s oldies and some jazz standards besides other material. It was great experience. Melanie is performing in China now.
@99: this thread has given you a ton of useful practical advice. You absolutely should not back out!
Last Edited by hvyj on Oct 01, 2018 8:26 PM
Ok, to my limited ear I felt that an E note had the least tension, but yes this is best described as basically a vi-ii-V-I cadence, so the version could be described better as G major. Blind Boy Fuller's Rag Mama Rag uses a similar progression.
So my take is that you're in 2nd position, not a million miles away from 5th as you well know.
I think this tune would sit best with a Country tuned harp, to give you the major seventh in the middle register (the note for "me" in the first line).
Apologies for the digression - I'm currently playing in an Americana band that touches on old jazz songs, so I'm trying to get my head around the best way to approach them with my basic diatonic skills. So for me at least this is a useful exercise.
Well, The tune is definitely in C. Not uncommonly at jams a singer may call Em because that’s the opening chord, so that’s a common mistake. The song structure is not at all like a rag or like Piedmont blues. I am in another duo in which we we play that type of material. For RAG MOMMA RAG I play major pentatonic in second position. Not a similar musical approach at all.
Fly me to the Moon does seem to be in C major with a flirtation with the relative minor. It open with Amin7 Dmin7 G7 Cmaj7 C7 takes you Fmaj7 then a II V in the relative minor etc. most of the chords not in C major I would consider secondary dominants. ----------
At the risk of shifting this thread onto a tangent -
I'd agree that the progression that Diggs outlined above is C major. In the clip embedded by hvyj it's a 5th up from that, starting in Em, and therefore I would say it's G major overall. Chords in the first section are vi - ii - V - I ie Em - Am - D - G
For what it's worth, the second section more or less uses the relative minor of the original progression, so there might be an argument that this part (in the clip, not Digg's progression) is in the key of Em, the relative minor of G.
My badly worded comment re Rag Mama is that this uses a VI - II - V - I so pretty close, just a couple of majors swapped for minors. But yes a totally different style of playing is appropriate here. That circle of fourths seems quite common in early jazz; I think it's sometimes called the "ragtime progression" - though that may strictly be only for iii - vi - ii - V.
Any corrections welcome
Last Edited by GamblersHand on Oct 02, 2018 1:17 PM
Melanie is a terrific singer, but somewhat limited on piano, so I'm not sure that she was always playing right chords. My job was to fill the gaps and play solos and try to avoid playing any clams in the process.
As I stated earlier, I would like to thank everyone for their input and suggestions. The evening went well. I sat in on 2 blues instrumentals which went over well with both the band and the crowd. The last number that I played on was a jazz jam. I did have a little trouble trying to anticipate their cord changes so I stayed in the back and played sparingly. I went with the "less is more" approach, as is mentioned so many times on this forum. The audience appeared to enjoy my playing. The band welcomed me to sit in with them in the future. I probably will not sit in with another jazz band until I do my homework in this field. I appreciate all your help.-99
Last Edited by