sonvolt13
153 posts
Sep 16, 2018
12:55 PM
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Is anyone on the forum doing tuning work on stock harps? (Lower 48).
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Gnarly
2548 posts
Sep 16, 2018
1:23 PM
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I do a lot of tuning, for folks--and for myself, have gotten into Just a lot.
I have a lot of YouTube videos on retuning diatonic harmonicas, look for GaryLehmann.
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sonvolt13
154 posts
Sep 16, 2018
1:28 PM
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Gary, are you taking on new Work?
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Gnarly
2549 posts
Sep 17, 2018
10:50 AM
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Yes, and my turnaround time is pretty good right now.
I usually quote 3-4 weeks, depends on the job.
I am charging $20 a harp to clean and examine, and fix the easy stuff. Then there is that pesky shipping and handling--another $10--so it's more equitable to send more than one.
I have reed stock for Hohner and Suzukis, if the note that is out of tune is actually fractured (bound to happen) . . .
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Django
57 posts
Sep 17, 2018
11:22 AM
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How often does a Harmonica generally need to be tuned? let's say you play a harp an hour every day.
Should a properly played harp need regular tuning or is it a very occasional thing say every year or two.
I wonder if pro players need to tune their harps every month or so.
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sonvolt13
155 posts
Sep 17, 2018
12:51 PM
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Django,
For me, a harp needs to be tuned when the octaves start beating. I’m a blues player, someone who plays a lot of pretty melodies may need more frequent tuning.You probably already know that using soft breath force helps them last longer.
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SuperBee
5580 posts
Sep 17, 2018
3:35 PM
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Good question Django.
I don’t really know.
The stainless steel reeds have a ‘reputation’ for very stable tuning. People say that once properly tuned, they stay in tune until they are damaged and about to break.
Brass definitely will drift, in my experience brass reeds often drift sharp.
I see a lot of harps for repairs. They always benefit from a tune up. I’ve been doing repairs for a few years and have seen harps come back for another repair at times; some people just keep on breaking their harps, sometimes they break 5 draw, I replace it and then a couple months later they lose the 4 draw, then 6 months on they break the 5 again. That’s the kind of thing. Also, some folks just send me their harps for an annual service. So I’ve seen a few more than once.
Usually I’m glad to get one that I’ve seen before because it will need much less tuning than a first time repair. But they do drift off a bit.
According to Kinya Pollard, Dick Sjoberg reputedly claims that a brass reed will be more stable if you tune it in both directions. That is, if it’s flat, tune it up a little beyond the target point, and then bring it back down. And vice versa.
I can’t say I’ve personally tracked any reeds to be able to vouch for the approach but I have done the thing numerous times by accidentally overshooting the target pitch.
My own harps get tuned as required but I don’t track the hours of playtime
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florida-trader
1356 posts
Sep 17, 2018
4:27 PM
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Reading between the lines a little bit here.
When you say “Stock” harp tuning I take it to mean that you don’t play custom harps and perhaps don’t even want to play custom harps. That’s cool. To each his own. However, if you are going to take the time to tune a harp, you might as well adjust the gaps and center the reeds (which also affects the tuning). And if the harp in question is assembled with screws rather than nails (the Marine Band 1896 being the only one worth tuning that I am aware of), you might as well flat sand the draw plate and dress up the edges while you have it apart. Maybe check the comb to make sure it is flat too. The end result is that you will have a harp that is far more responsive AND in tune. My bet is there are at least a dozen guys on this forum who can do this for you and it would only take 15-20 minutes per harp. It would not be a “Custom” harp, but, more than likely, it would be significantly improved.
The point is that it doesn’t take much work to take an out of tune stock harp and turn it into something special. It takes skill, but not much time or labor. I’ll be talking about such things at the upcoming Harmonica Collective in New Orleans on November 1-3.
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Tom Halchak
Blue Moon Harmonicas
Last Edited by florida-trader on Sep 18, 2018 6:20 AM
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sonvolt13
156 posts
Sep 18, 2018
6:00 AM
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Tom,
I do play some custom harps and some stock instruments (special 20s). Typically A and Bb are custom and C and D are stock. (I use these 4 harps in 2nd and 3rd to play in 7 keys). I gap my own stock harps but my attempts at tuning over the years have been lacking. So sometimes I just want someone to save a stock harp by retuning. Sometimes I cut my losses and just purchase a new instrument. My customs are taken care of by the person who made them.
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Thievin' Heathen
1057 posts
Sep 18, 2018
6:15 AM
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Another interesting aspect of the question..., How often is a "stock harp" really in tune to begin with?
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Gnarly
2550 posts
Sep 18, 2018
7:53 AM
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@Thievin' In the process of retuning harps for customers, I find that they can be quite sharp--I like a reference of 442-443, but find instruments at 444 routinely (mainly Hohner and Easttop).
As far as being in tune with themselves, that can vary too. I have started using Just tuned harmonicas for my personal instrument, and quite like the fact that the notes agree with each other--harmonicas are (largely) chord instruments, it makes little sense to have them tuned to equal. That said, most of the Suzuki line are ET. I ask the customer, and do what they want.
Last Edited by Gnarly on Sep 18, 2018 7:55 AM
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florida-trader
1357 posts
Sep 18, 2018
7:59 AM
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Thievin' Heathen – “How often is a "stock harp" really in tune to begin with?” Um……………….. never.
sonvolt - that is an interesting strategy which makes sense. The lower keys often feel a bit sluggish compared to a C or a D harp. Customization improves the response and makes them play like a C or D harp. Sounds like to me that you have some skills working with reeds. Tuning is not an isolated separate step. When you work on reed plates, the act of tuning affects the shape and gapping of the reeds and the act of gapping affects the tuning. To get a harp into proper tune, you have to take a more global approach. It is a back and forth process. Everything little thing you do affects the tuning.
Generally speaking, here is my step by step approach:
1. It is easier to work on reed plates when they are off the harp. So, that’s where I start. If the plate is warped or bent, you have to flatten it out. Flat reed plates mated with flat combs makes for a much more airtight and responsive harp. It is also easier to center the reeds in the slots, correct any mis-shaped reeds and adjust the gaps with the reed plates off the comb. Your eyes are a great tool for gauging the proper gapping on the reeds. The general rule of thumb is that the gap should be about the same width as the thickness of the tip of the reed. So, lower, longer reeds, thicker reeds with weights on the tips, will have wider gaps than shorter, thinner, higher pitched reeds. What is the definition of the perfect gap? To me, the ideal gap is one which enables the reed to respond with minimal breath pressure but will not choke if you hit it hard. This can vary from one player to the next. You start by using your eyes, but at the end of the process, you have to play the harp and feel how each reed responds to your attack. Then make your final adjustments. Until then, you rely on your eyes.
2. After you have adjusted all the reeds, start by playing the blow reeds with the plates held onto the comb with your fingers. It is easier to tune the individual reeds on the blow plate when you can take them off the comb and get at them from the rivet side. When you tune a reed, you slide a shim under it for support and remove material from either the tip of the reed (to raise the pitch) or the base of the reed (to lower the pitch). You can remove material with a variety of tools depending your personal preference and availability – files, sanding wands or rotary tools. The act of propping up the reed with a shim and removing material from either the tip or base can change the shape and gap of the reed. So, after you bring the reed into tune, you have to re-check the shape and gap. Then you have to re-check the tuning. This first tuning, your goal is not to get it perfect. You want to get the reeds within a couple of cents of the target. A couple cents sharp is preferable to a couple of cents flat. The reason for this will become apparent in step 5.
3. Attach the reed plates to the comb.
4. Check the gaps on the blow plate and adjust as needed.
5. Holding the covers on the harp with your fingers, check the tuning on the blow plate. You will probably find that several of the reeds are a little flatter or sharper than they were when they were held onto the comb with your fingers. This is understandable because securing the reed plates to the comb with screws makes the harp more airtight and anchors the reeds more securely. So, now you have to “touch up” the tuning. If the reed is sharp, you have to remove a little material from the base of the reed. You can use an X-Acto knife, a Draw Scraper or a diamond engraving bit on a rotary too. If the pitch of the reed is flat, you have to work on the tip of the reed, which is slightly more difficult than working on the base. Reeds are thickest at the base and since they are attached to the reed plate at the base, it won’t move much when you exert pressure on it. The tip of the reed is thinner and has no support. To raise the pitch of the blow reeds while they are attached to the comb means you have to support the reed inside the harp – either by sliding a support inside the chamber or shoving the reed up through the slot with a thin shim. On longer reeds, I tend to shove it up through the slot with a shim, but on the shorter reeds, I tend to slide a support into the comb and avoid pushing it up through the slot. The primary reason is that shoving the shorter reeds up through the slot can change the shape and gap which you then have to address again. This is why I prefer to leave the reeds a touch sharp in Step 2. It is less “damaging” to tune the base of the reed than the tip.
6. After tuning the blow plate, re-check the gaps and adjust accordingly. And then re-check the tuning.
7. Next - the draw plate. We have not done any tuning work on the draw plate prior to it being attached to the comb because since the reeds on the draw plate are on the outside of the comb, it is easy to get at them. Re-check the gaps and shape of the draw reeds and then begin tuning, again with the covers held on with your fingers. Re-check the gaps and re-check the tuning
8. Holding the covers on with your fingers, play the harp. Play scales, licks, octaves, splits, draw bends, blow bends, perhaps overblows - however you normally play. If a reed is not responding the way you want, adjust the gap. Make small adjustments and then test. Keep working on it until every reed responds the way you want it to.
9. Attach the covers to the harp and test everything again. Just as there is a difference between holding the reed plates onto the comb vs. attaching them, there is also a difference between holding the covers on with your fingers and attaching them to the harp with screws. You may find that you will have to remove the covers and adjust the tuning on a couple of the reeds. Attaching the covers with screws can change the way a reed responds or the tuning.
Here are couple more rules of thumb when attaching reed plates and covers to the comb.
1. Don’t tighten any of the screws down until you have partially threaded them all.
2. Once you have all the screws threaded, line the reed plates and comb up the way you want them and tighten the center screw(s) first. Work from the center of the harp to the edges. If the reed plates are not perfectly flat, which is frequently the case, you want to move any “bubbles” to the outside edges of the harp to eliminate any leaks. Think about putting a screen protector on your smart phone and pushing the bubbles to the edges. If you tighten the screws on the ends first, you can trap a leak in the center of the harp.
3. Do not over-tighten the screws. Just tighten them with the tips of your fingers on the screw driver. When they stop turning with light pressure – stop. If you crank the screws down as tight as they can go, it will dimple the reed plate at the screw hole and cause the plate to bulge between the screw holes – thus creating leaks. This is why you use a Torque Wrench when you bolt valve covers to an engine. To avoid tightening it too much and creating leaks. So, it is kind of counter-intuitive. Logic tells us that the tighter we make the screws, the more airtight the harp is. This is only true up to a certain point. The same is true for the cover plate screws. Don’t over-tighten them for the same reason.
This got a little longer than I anticipated, but I hope there is a nugget of good information in here for someone.
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Tom Halchak
Blue Moon Harmonicas
Last Edited by florida-trader on Sep 19, 2018 3:43 AM
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sonvolt13
157 posts
Sep 18, 2018
9:33 AM
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Tom,
You make some great points. There are times when my gapping has put the octaves out of tune and I have to go back and adjust. As far as tuning my own harps, I just don’t have the patience. My “tool kit” is basically a toothpick and a screw driver. I typically get customs in A and Bb because they are much louder than stock and can compete with the volume produced by the C and D harps. Of course the added responsiveness is nice too.
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florida-trader
1358 posts
Sep 18, 2018
11:16 AM
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sonvolt13 You should just get hold of Mike Peace in Tulsa. I get calls or emails all the time from people who are looking for repairs on blown out harps. Mike does a great job and his fees are very resonable. You aren't talking about blow out harps, so I would expect that his fees would be even more reasonable because he won't have to replace any reeds.
Mike Peace Route 66 Custom Harmonicas
10804 East 7th Street
Tulsa, OK 74128
918-527-2474
mmpeace@cox.net
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Tom Halchak
Blue Moon Harmonicas
Last Edited by florida-trader on Sep 19, 2018 3:34 AM
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Thievin' Heathen
1058 posts
Sep 18, 2018
5:21 PM
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I have not gone so far as to re-tune all my Suzukis yet, but all of my Marine Bands and most of my Lee Oskar's are tuned just intonation. E.T. just sounds edgey to me. I have enough edgey in my life, I need my harps to sound mellow.
Last Edited by Thievin' Heathen on Sep 18, 2018 5:21 PM
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hvyj
3625 posts
Sep 18, 2018
6:47 PM
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@TH: are you saying that your ET harps sound “edgy” played by themselves or when played ensemble with other instruments or both? Just curious.
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Gnarly
2551 posts
Sep 18, 2018
8:29 PM
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What I notice with Just is the "difference tones", extra notes pop out.
It's probably actually additive tones, but whatever.
Hey Tom, great post!
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Thievin' Heathen
1060 posts
Sep 19, 2018
6:26 AM
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@hvyj - I have a set of ebay MB's in various stages of reworking that I carry around all the time. I can usually get in about 40 minutes of practice in a park at lunch and that is a good way to test the reliability of my customizing. I have another set. of which I know everything is in working order, and that's the one I take out to play in public with. That set is heavy in Suzukis and when I was recently sitting in with a friend (country folk/rock) I just noticed that things were not sounding right to me. Then it occurred to me I was feeling the same vibe at the Saturday morning bluegrass jam at The Square downtown. And when I'm woodshedding I always seem to gravitate towards some old MB I've re-worked rather than any of my OOTB name brand harps. So the answer to your question is, both. I just seem to like the sound of 7 limit just tuning. Within reason, I think it has more to do with the harp being in-tune with itself and that counters the effect of not being ET with the pickers. I really want to have this discussion with a fiddle player. Maybe it's just time to re-check the tuning on all those Suzukis.
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florida-trader
1359 posts
Sep 19, 2018
10:37 AM
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Thieven - if you are talking about the stock tuning on a Suzuki, I am not fan either. I am a fan of the harps, but not the way they are tuned at the factory. I tune Suzukis to Modern Compromise Temperament, which is the current MB 1896 tuning, and I think it makes a big difference.
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Tom Halchak
Blue Moon Harmonicas
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hvyj
3626 posts
Sep 19, 2018
4:34 PM
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@TH:Interesting perspective. But let me ask you if you regularly use a lot of chords and side-by-side double stops in your playing? Also, what position(s) do you primarily use?
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Thievin' Heathen
1061 posts
Sep 20, 2018
6:33 AM
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Tom, I think I will be re-tuning all those Suzukis. Maybe 19 limit. It's supposed to rain all weekend. It just seems a shame to run a file across all those pretty laser marks. I guess I'll get over it.
@hvyj - I do like to use chords and I probably ride on double stops quite a bit, but I think single hole melodic riffs is the majority of what I am playing. Another harp player paid me a nice unintended compliment at a blues jam recently when I offered him the stage. He said, "why don't you play lead and I will back you up". That kind of struck home. I gravitate to harmonica leads.
I told myself awhile back, I was going to stop thinking in positions but instead start concentrating on thinking, "I'm playing in the key of E on an A harp" in hopes that I would better retain and incorporate all the (sadly fruitless to date) almost constant study in music theory. Not much luck there. I play in 2nd most of the time because old habits die hard, 1st when I remember to and 3rd as survival in minor keys. I occasionally work on everything else but rarely have a chance to use it because I will be experimenting while improvising and rarely find myself in a situation where that will be well received.
I hope no one thinks I am trying to portray myself as any kind of expert. I am merely a fanatic. Expert is years down the road and my day job keeps getting in the way. As a matter of fact, I'm late again.
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groyster1
3252 posts
Sep 20, 2018
6:38 AM
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Im with you on the JI tuning of old marine bands.....and believe me I have a ton of them.....and all my custom marine bands are tuned to 19JI
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hvyj
3627 posts
Sep 21, 2018
12:25 AM
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@TH: ya know, I feel out of tune with the other musicians if I play anything other than ET in an ensemble. But I am a big proponent of selecting and using equipment and instruments/tunings that help you as a player to sound HOW YOU PERSONALLY WANT TO SOUND, and not just because you’ve heard someone else play that way. That seems to be what you’re achieving or at least the direction you are moving in which, IMHO, is a very positive dynamic.
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nowmon
185 posts
Sep 21, 2018
7:26 AM
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Just remember, Little Walter and James Cotton, Honked their heads off ,for years.In the 60`s the big deal in keeping your harp in running condition was running it under warm water,then shake it dry, let it sit a day to get real dry Not much more was done. Though they only cost $2.50...
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groyster1
3254 posts
Sep 22, 2018
11:09 AM
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cannot think that made the wood combs not swell
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