Lee Shamrock
6 posts
Sep 08, 2018
8:55 PM
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A few months ago I bought 2 dozen EastTops in various keys because the price was so cheap. Unfortunately, I've blown reeds in 4 A harps, 1 G and 1 C. I play only rack harp and yes, I play too hard. But, my Tombos have always lasted longer so cost effectiveness says I'll stick with those. The EastTops played well and the sound was OK, but no more for me.
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jbone
2696 posts
Sep 08, 2018
9:08 PM
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I'm curious, do you play all acoustic or do you amp up?
I play my Eastops amped and they are working well.
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Music and travel destroy prejudice.
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Lee Shamrock
7 posts
Sep 09, 2018
6:42 AM
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I just play over my vocal mic. It's probably why I'm in the habit of playing too hard. :-(
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dougharps
1828 posts
Sep 09, 2018
7:01 AM
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I don't use my Eastops constantly, but when I do play them I often hit them hard. They have Big River cover plates as I didn't care for the feel of the black powder coat on the original covers.
So far I have had no problems with their reeds. They seem durable and are loud and raspy.
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Doug S.
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Sarge
697 posts
Sep 09, 2018
7:10 AM
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I play Easttops exclusively and I have had no problems with them at all. I play acoustically and belt out the songs I play. My style of playing and the songs I play don't require a lot of bending and no over blowing, etc.
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Wisdom does not always come with old age. Sometimes old age arrives alone.
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Lee Shamrock
8 posts
Sep 09, 2018
8:02 AM
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Mmm...Maybe I just got some made from a bad "batch" of reeds.
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florida-trader
1348 posts
Sep 09, 2018
10:06 AM
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Lee - where are you located? Seems to me that regardless of which model/brand you play it would behoove you to cultivate a relationship with a good harp tech. The most commonly blown out reeds are 5 draw and 7 blow. A good harp tech can easily replace a blown out reed for you and keep you in functioning harps. If you are blowing out harps with that frequency, why not get with a guy who can save you a bunch of money?
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Tom Halchak
Blue Moon Harmonicas
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Lee Shamrock
9 posts
Sep 09, 2018
11:45 AM
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Thanks Tom, Great advice. I know because I've been fixing my own reeds (and those of others) for 20 years. :-)
My dilemma now is, are these cheap harps worth fixing? If reeds are breaking so easy, after fixing one, another reed will break, then another, then...
I've played just about every brand harp out there and I'm pretty sure I'll stick with Tombos (LO/Folk Blues/Major Boy). They last the longest for me.
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SweetBlood
83 posts
Sep 09, 2018
4:16 PM
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I bought a few to try as well. Since I don't play as much harp as I would like, I can't speak to the durability, but mine seem to play well. I don't like the way they sound all that much. They seem too bright for my taste.
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florida-trader
1349 posts
Sep 10, 2018
6:05 AM
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In that case Lee - hang on to the blown out East Tops. Eventually someone will come looking for them as a source for donor reeds.
By the way, the Lee Oskars do have a reputation for being very durable harps and if one is inclined to blow out reeds, replacement reed plates are readily available. You can find them on eBay for as little as $15 a set.
Best of luck. Thanks for the intel on the East Tops. It is good information. As more and more of them enter the market, the pool of information about them will get deeper.
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Tom Halchak
Blue Moon Harmonicas
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dougharps
1829 posts
Sep 10, 2018
7:51 AM
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I began to use LOs in the '90s because SP20s were failing me too often, and I thought that LOs were more durable. The ability to replace reed plates instead of the entire harps was a plus. I kept replacing LO reed plates when reeds failed beyond my retuning, so maybe LOs were not as durable as I thought. They did save money for me as opposed to SP20s of that day. I went back to Special 20s after they improved, because I liked the sound better.
Since then I always try new brands/models when they come out, which has given me a weird collection of different harps in my kit, but familiarity with most commonly seen harps. Now I tend to choose what instrument to play based on the gig circumstances and the song.
After I started to learn how to play a couple overblows at SPAH back in 2008 (If those kids could do it, damn it, I wanted to learn!) I gapped all of my harps lower, bought some custom harps, and air tightness became a factor affecting my playing. I did not want to blow out custom harps or as many harps, as that was too expensive with the higher prices on harps. Gig money bought my harps and gear, but I wasn't earning enough to keep wasting harps. My minimal OB playing forced me to finally learn some breath control. Harps usually last me much longer now. When playing in live loud situations I still sometimes revert to moving a lot of air through the harp, but most of the time I use considerably less force. In live loud situations I tend to go to Manjis and Olives now, since they seem best at handling when I slip up and play too hard, but they remain responsive to my OB passing tone approach.
Now my LOs are my car harps. They are OK to use in a pinch, and sometimes I may choose them for unamplified outdoor gigs in the cool of evening. Whenever I use them I am confronted by their relative leakiness compared to other brands of harps. I cannot play as many notes per breath with LOs. To me they are leakier than Manjis, Olives, Seydel Session Steels, 1847 Classics, SP20s, Crossovers, and MBDs. They are leakier than my 8 Easttops, too! They are about the same level of leakiness as a Big River on a stock comb. (NOTE: a custom comb can improve a Big River!)
My Easttops are fairly tight and responsive, certainly superior to LOs in my opinion. They DO sound a bit bright and raspy, so they may not be what you want unless you choose to retune them to your liking. I use them here and there and don't really mind how they sound. They were an incredible bargain, even if I did decide that the feel of the powder coated covers was not to my liking, causing me to switch to old Big River covers. I have used Easttops in unamplified settings played fairly hard, and they have held pitch for me.
I now think that LOs SEEM to last a little longer because they are not as air tight, so some excessive breath force leaks past the reeds. Higher pitched LOs play better with less leakage than lower keys, IMHO, leaking less around the reed/slot space. This is a purely subjective observation. I discovered this playing LOs on Mount Evans at 14,000 feet elevation. I could barely play 12 bars on a C Lee Oskar, but running out of breath on an F LO was not such an issue.
It used to bug me that Barbecue Bob kept going on about controlling your breath force.
However, I now believe he was absolutely right!
I think that if you are going to overbend at all, a tighter harp will help. That includes gapping, slot tolerances, and comb flatness. The next logical step is breath control, or you will choke the reeds when moving too much air.
@Lee Shamrock
If you are blowing too hard due to playing to a vocal mic, then you need more of you in the monitor! I have wrecked harps doing exactly what you describe on a loud stage. I ruined a brand new D Crossover doing that on a very loud stage with poor monitoring on the vocal mic. Now I would ask for more and also choose to use a Manji.
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Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Sep 10, 2018 7:55 AM
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Martin
1498 posts
Sep 11, 2018
12:08 PM
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Don´t expect the Easttops to last if you´re playing hard. And by that I don´t mean (trivially) that you should not expect *any* harp to last if you´re playing hard -- but to me it´s obvious that the relative downside to their affordability and generally high standard it that they don´t last.
Higher pitched ones are as always more reliable, but the G´s and A´s that I´ve bought were quick love affairs, indeed. (Then Sweden slapped an extra fee upon goods from China so that was it for me as far as Easttops go.)
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JInx
1392 posts
Sep 11, 2018
12:25 PM
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Easttop makes a pocket chord harmonica that is really nice. Only $72 on eBay.
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groyster1
3250 posts
Sep 11, 2018
1:13 PM
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easttops had a good strategy in marketing their harps for bargain price......but will not buy anymore.....when they die chuck `em
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JInx
1393 posts
Sep 11, 2018
1:22 PM
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$6 buys a two year warranty on eBay
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Lee Shamrock
10 posts
Sep 12, 2018
1:09 AM
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Thanks for all the great feedback, stories and discussion. I love this forum.
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Zach Nickles
2 posts
Sep 12, 2018
4:40 AM
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I've always wondered how those ebay warranties worked....will they really replace the harps?
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barbequebob
3539 posts
Sep 12, 2018
8:46 AM
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Truth be told, NO HARP is going to hold up well in the long run from playing too hard and doing that isn't just a bad habit, it's also bad playing technique as well as outright macho stupidity doing that. The macho bonehead thing to do that when somebody plays too loud is to automatically try and play louder and harder but for a harp player THAT'S A LOSING BATTLE because you will NEVER generate enough lung power to do that and the only things that will happen are:
a). Harps get blown out very quickly (if your harps do not last AT LEAST one year with brass reeds and two years with stainless steel reeds, based on playing REAL gigs 4-8++ nights per month, the harmonicas are NOT the problem, YOU are the problem with bad playing technique);
b). From playing too hard, it will also make you sound like a really HORRIBLE harp player because your tone is going to be thin, tinny and harsh and NO amount of gear is going to cover that up.
Are there defects with harps no matter who makes them? Yes, but it's TOO EASY to blame harps because 85% of player's problems have VERY LITTLE to do with it and 85% of the time, it's bad technique that ruins harps and the single biggest one is playing with too much breath force AKA playing too hard. I had the best teacher in the world to show that to me up close and personal when I was younger, Big Walter Horton and 80% of the time, he played VERY SOFTLY.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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JInx
1394 posts
Sep 12, 2018
10:04 AM
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"From playing too hard, it will also make you sound like a really HORRIBLE harp player because your tone is going to be thin, tinny and harsh and NO amount of gear is going to cover that up." -BBQ Bob
AMEN! And certainly no amount modern overblowing/technical prowess will make you any more musical. That harsh shrill tone is a deal breaker.
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Last Edited by JInx on Sep 12, 2018 12:10 PM
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florida-trader
1352 posts
Sep 12, 2018
12:13 PM
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Not to pile on, but I find the comments on this thread quite interesting.
Full disclosure. I do not own any East Top Harmonicas. I have only played them once at the SPAH Convention. They seem to be well engineered and built.
East Top burst onto the harmonica scene about 3 years ago and it looked like they were going to give the Big 3 (Hohner, Seydel and Suzuki) some serious competition. Finally, there were good harps available at a lower price than the major brands. People were pretty excited. I was less enthused, but I must confess that was mostly due to the fact that I have built my business around catering to the millions of Hohner, Suzuki and Seydel harmonicas in circulation (and you can throw Lee Oskar into the mix too). Some people asked me if I offered custom combs for the East Tops. The answer was (and still is), “No. There aren’t enough of them in the market yet to create a demand. Let’s wait and see what happens.” A lot of people were saying that they were a pretty good bang for the buck, but it did not appear that East Tops were going to become harps that guys would invest extra money in to customize. Still, the notion of a Chinese made harmonica that was both quality and inexpensive had my attention. Fast forward to today and we now have Blue Bird and Kongsheng competing for our business. Hmmmmm…
Did you ever wonder why the Marine Band 1896, of all the harps Hohner built, became the preferred harmonica of Blues Musicans and later Rock Musicians? Most would say it was because of the unique tone produced by the Marine Band. While this is certainly so, the biggest reason was durability. The reeds were stronger and lasted longer. Not forever, but longer than the other harps on the market.
groyster1 wrote, “easttops had a good strategy in marketing their harps for bargain price......but will not buy anymore.....when they die chuck `em”. I’ve known George for a long time. He’s no dummy. This is an interesting take. I wonder if others will reach the same conclusion. I dunno. Just sayin…………
Perhaps, as the old saying goes, “The more things change, the more they stay the same”. Time will tell. Like I said, I find the comments interesting and I will be keeping an eye on things.
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Tom Halchak
Blue Moon Harmonicas
Last Edited by florida-trader on Sep 12, 2018 12:33 PM
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jbone
2698 posts
Sep 12, 2018
3:43 PM
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Tom, I would say that the Marine Band was also the most ubiquitous and available harp across the US for many years as well as the other points you make above. When I began this journey in the early 70's there were NO other harps available locally. If it didn't say Hohner on it it just was not there. This was before we saw Leeo Oskar or Suzuki, or Seydel on the scene in any big way.
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Music and travel destroy prejudice.
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Martin
1499 posts
Sep 13, 2018
5:23 AM
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Barbecuebob wrote:
"b). From playing too hard, it will also make you sound like a really HORRIBLE harp player because your tone is going to be thin, tinny and harsh and NO amount of gear is going to cover that up."
That´s really valuable advice! I´ve since long suspected that something was wrong with my tone -- and Harp Attacks, Harp Octaves, tube amplifiers, EQ´s and various other pedals have helped me zilch: I simply play too hard.
Some people might remember utterances from James Cotton and Lee Oskar et al on the durability of harmonicas, but they suck. (And James C was never any of my favourites anyway. Now I know why.)
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florida-trader
1353 posts
Sep 13, 2018
6:42 AM
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jbone - I'm just relating something I read about the history of the Marine Band - the durability part. Not sure where I read it. Just a little tidbit of information I picked up along the way. When I read it, it hit me because I see alot of harps with blown out reeds. We all know that a cheap harp like aHot Metal or a Blues Band will blow out a lot faster than any of Hohner's top shelf harps - Marine Band, Special 20, etc. Go back 100+ years when Hohner was still going through the trial and error process and it is easy to imagine some models faring better than others. They are still going through that today as evidenced by the number of models that have been discontinued and/or upgraded.
So, this might be a bit of a Chicken and Egg question. Were the Marine Bands the most popular because they were the most available, or were they the most available because they were the most popular? More than likely, some of both.
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Tom Halchak
Blue Moon Harmonicas
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dougharps
1831 posts
Sep 13, 2018
7:39 AM
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For a very long time Marine Bands and other earlier and contemporary similarly built Hohner wood combed nailed harps were all the diatonic harmonicas that were available in the US from local music stores. When I started they were priced between $2.50 and $3.50 for a Marine Band or Bluesharp. Before the internet the local music store was the primary source of harmonicas, with mail order coming along next. You bought from what was available.
Marine Bands, Pocket Pals, and the PRE-MS Bluesharps were all that were available when I started in the late '60s. The smaller Bluesharps had different covers, but like the Marine Band were relatively inexpensive, leaky, and disposable. People would soak them to try to tighten them up, which helped briefly, but ultimately ruined them earlier than would have been the case.
Harmonica customizing originated with trying to improve the overall quality of these cheap instruments. Until then, only a small portion of the available Marine Bands played really well. It was a random quality issue. I have read of professional players buying a box of instruments and discarding the majority as not up to standards for professional playing. Since the Marine Band was all there was, people learned to make the most of them and making improvements themselves.
Then came customizing, and other manufacturers offered competition. Hohner has significantly improved their line due to customizers and competition from other manufacturers. Competition from upstarts, such as Tombo/Lee Oskar, Huang, Suzuki, Seydel, and now the current Chinese competition, has improved the instrument.
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Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Sep 13, 2018 9:55 AM
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Tuckster
1697 posts
Sep 13, 2018
7:59 AM
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I know a lot of good players who still swear by Marine Bands. I think it has to do with their tuning.Personally,I prefer the more maintenance friendly Deluxes.
I own 3 Easttop chromatics and i like them very much.Only have one of their diatonics but it's a half valved one. It plays very well. My harp teacher was impressed with it's air tightness.
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barbequebob
3540 posts
Sep 13, 2018
9:41 AM
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@martin -- even tho you're not a fan of Cotton, the average players tends to play MUCH harder than he actually did and the big trademark to his sound, the deep, slow throat vibrato, is damned near next to physically impossible to control the speed of it when you play really hard. As Bette Midler once said as a coaching assistant on the TV show, The Voice, "People often listen with their eyes rather than their ears," meaning that if someone tends to move around and gyrate on the bandstand, for a harp player, it's RIDICULOUSLY EAsy to fool damned near everyone that you're playing a lot harder than you really are and I've done that to people tons of times over the years and most really hard players tend to be stiff as a statue on the bandstand. A direct quote from Little Walter in an interview he did just before he passed away on why he preferred to play amplified, his answer was and I quote, "So I don't have to be blowin' so hard." Apparatnly most players are too hard headed to get the message.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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IaNerd
51 posts
Sep 13, 2018
10:27 AM
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Hohner and Suzuki make--or license their names to--some 10-hole models which are unplayable toys. These are akin to those "department store" telescopes which frustrate rather than inspire beginners. Seydel doesn't play that game.
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Martin
1500 posts
Sep 13, 2018
12:00 PM
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@barbecuebob: As for Cotton, it was he himself, I believe, who said in an interview that he wrecked a tremendous amount of harps.
Lee Oskar said the same -- and that is why we have LO harmonicas: he got tired of the situation.
On the general question, and my benevolent sarcasm aside, playing hard is not a choice but an integrated part of some people´s playing style. You don´t play hard all the time (would be unbearable) but you put quite a lot of pressure into the harp at certain times.
Partly because you can´t help yourself, and partly for expression.
I´ve been playing a while, and I´m 61 now, and don´t entertain any greater hope of being able to change this. So maybe I sound "thin, tinny and harsh", according to your diagnosis of everyone who plays hard, but I´ll just have to live with it.
(The LW quote is valid: With the proper equipment you can somewhat attenuate your attack, and save some harmonicas. Also, with the proper equipment you sound better. Thin, tinny and harsh, of course, but better -- just because of the equipment. That equipment costs a bit, though.)
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sydeman
213 posts
Sep 13, 2018
12:22 PM
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Have used Marine Bands since the mid 60's except for awhile in the mid 90's when they got so bad I tried Haungs for awhile which were a little better but ended up getting a couple of customs from Richard Sleigh in 1996 and have stayed with Marine bands since. My chromatic is a CBH2016 and have an old 365 that have had for years. James Cotton has blown more than a few harps apart over the years.. through light breathing or just lemons?
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Martin
1501 posts
Sep 14, 2018
6:20 AM
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In terms of sheer value for money -- playability and durability -- the Huang Silvertones that I bought over the years (a dozen or so) are top of the heap.
Interestingly, they were also something like a third of the prize of regular diatonics.
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Sarge
698 posts
Sep 14, 2018
8:40 AM
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It seems that a lot of folks put down the Easttop, Huang,etc harmonicas because they are made in China. Anyone in my age bracket will remember that back in the 50's anything made in Japan was junk! It didn't matter what it was or if it was good or not, it was junk. Then Japan started to progress and now items made in Japan are looked upon as some of the best. Not only harmonicas, but a myriad of other items. China is progressing in the same manner. Their manufacturing and quality control is getting better. Before long China will no longer have that stigma that Japan had. I have heard, however, that they can be difficult to deal with on a commercial basis, but maybe that will improve also.
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Wisdom does not always come with old age. Sometimes old age arrives alone.
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garry
732 posts
Sep 14, 2018
7:37 PM
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Me and my amp have a deal. I make it pretty, it makes it loud. So far the amp is holding up its end.
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florida-trader
1354 posts
Sep 15, 2018
7:43 AM
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Sarge – when the East Tops first came out about two years ago, the consensus was that they were very good harps. Not just good harps “for the money”, but good harps - period. And they do cost less than Hohners, Seydels and Suzukis. That caught a lot of people’s attention. One of the more prominent vendors at SPAH, Danny G. of New Harmonica used to be a dealer for Hohner, Suzuki and Seydel. He sold every type of harmonica. Two years ago, he abandoned the Big 3 and started selling East Top exclusively. That raised a few eye brows. Not that he is the end-all, be-all but Danny is a very respected businessman (and a good player too).
I am certainly old enough to remember that when it said “Made in Japan” it was junk. Chinese goods have a similar reputation. I don’t think that is a matter of technology or quality control. If they can put satellites in orbit, they can build a quality harmonica – if they want to. I truly believe that it boils down to a business philosophy. You either want to build good products or you don’t. Even our beloved Hohner when through a period of about 15-20 years where the quality of their harmonicas suffered. Did they lose the capability to make quality harmonicas or was there a change in management and/or business philosophy? The cost of building high quality products is higher, so you have to charge more for them. I think China, with its cheap labor, developed a collective mindset of competing purely on price. They didn’t have to make products that were better than the competition. They just had to make products that were “good enough” and charge half the price, and people would buy them. Lots of people are looking for a good deal. Lots of people have not yet learned the difference between price and cost and so they gravitate towards lower priced things.
I mentioned in my first comment on this thread that I don’t own any East Tops, I don’t work on them and I don’t make components for them. However, I do keep my eyes and ears open and am interested in how things settle out once the initial surge in popularity has marinated a bit. The OP started this thread with a report of his personal experience after having played the East Tops for a period of time. Bottom line, according to him, they sounded good when new but didn’t last as long as other brands/models that he has. Others have had the same experience. This is a small sampling. Time will tell if the East Tops are contenders or pretenders. But, I do not believe that it is a function of ability. The Chinese are perfectly capable of producing whatever quality they choose. It is a function of attitude. Just my two cents.
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Tom Halchak
Blue Moon Harmonicas
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Sarge
699 posts
Sep 15, 2018
1:26 PM
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You are correct Tom. I wasn't implying that they didn't have the capability to manufacture a quality instrument, but they were more concerned with price rather than quality and for the reason you cited. When Danny received his first shipment of Easttops I got a set of 7 of the 008S. I have had no problem with them at all in the two years I have played them. Now, to be quite honest, they are not of the same caliber as the harmonica I got from you, but what harmonicas compare with yours?
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Wisdom does not always come with old age. Sometimes old age arrives alone.
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florida-trader
1355 posts
Sep 15, 2018
2:44 PM
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Awwwwwww Sarge - you say the sweetested things. Thanks.
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Tom Halchak
Blue Moon Harmonicas
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groyster1
3251 posts
Sep 17, 2018
5:04 PM
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I bought 3 of them for $12.99 free shipping.....all out of curiosity........did not need them.....if I live to be 200 will never need anymore harps
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garry
733 posts
Sep 18, 2018
7:22 PM
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I bought one a while back out of curiosity and loved it. My main gig harps are still Session Steels and Blues Masters, but I picked up a bunch of Eastops for practice harps. I can get twice as many for my dollar and fill out some of the oddball keys I don't use as much. I still prefer the feel and tone of my Seydels and Suzukis, but you can't beat them for spares.
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