BeelzeBob
52 posts
Aug 20, 2018
6:29 PM
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After a lifetime of thinking I wasn't good enough to play out, I finally did, at the legendary Archie Edwards Barbershop acoustic blues jam in Riverdale, MD. It's all Saturday afternoon basically, and I've made five in a row. A lot of tunes are in C. A pro there told me that a low F would not cut through the mix, stick with a regular F. I bought a new SP20 F, I hate it except for a few styles (Sonny Terry). I've been practicing third position with a Bb, I don't know if I'll ever feel fluid with it unless the tune is minor. There are five to ten stringed instruments going at any given time, and up to five harps or horns. So, do folks agree with the pro - a low F wouldn't work? Maybe a powerdraw would be good with a low F, I don't overblow.
As far as the jam, I'm having fun and certainly been made to feel welcome. Any DC area folks, check it out!
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Rontana
490 posts
Aug 20, 2018
7:20 PM
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Congrats on playing out, Bob
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"Humor is always the first victim of political correctness."
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jbone
2676 posts
Aug 20, 2018
9:03 PM
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Hi Bob, congrats on that big step! It's a real gas is it not!
Low F is a very hard-to-hear harp unless it's amped. When I busk I do one of 3 things on a C song- 1st or straight, 2nd or cross on a regular F, or 3rd or slant on a Bb. I don't know how well 3rd will work on the Piedmont type blues at Archie's from what I've heard. I'd take a chance and bone up on 1st position in C and go for it. Or be as laid back as possible with a regular F.
Music and travel destroy prejudice.
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Andrew
1808 posts
Aug 21, 2018
3:00 AM
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I have this problem at the uke club. C is the most common key for us, so I have to use a standard F harp, which I don't enjoy, to cut through. If I played a Low F, I'd have to put it through the bassist's amp.
Since we do three western swing numbers, I'm learning the fiddle. I can take a fiddle and a travel uke and a couple of harps and a shoulderbag full of music with me on the bus, but a Shure mic in addition might be the straw that broke the camel's back, lol!
Last Edited by Andrew on Aug 22, 2018 4:33 AM
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SuperBee
5560 posts
Aug 21, 2018
6:31 AM
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I wonder what sort of music.
For learning to love a standard F there are some cool things to play along with. The pogues’ sickbed of cuchulainn is kinda fun to see how fast you can play the accordion part, but there’s a nice record of sonny boy’s mr Downchild which might get you fired up, also the first sonny boy used an F on sloppy drunk which is also fun. And then Louis Jordan’s Caldonia Boogie can get you working out the 3 draw bends.
Those are the group which helped me love my F harp.
Learning to play major in 3rd is also a reasonable approach as is learning to play some 1st position on a C harp.
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Littoral
1630 posts
Aug 21, 2018
7:10 AM
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1978, Judge Roy Beans in Hyattsville. I think that may have been my first time on stage. Good for you. It's been 40 years of pure fun (but at least I don't yell/type in all caps yet). I lived mostly in Va. and Fl since then. I got some serious direction early on playing in the Tacoma Park clan of the Cambridge Harmonica Orchestra. The internet oughta ramp up the learning curve. First tweed came from Wheaton. :)
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AppalachiaBlues
213 posts
Aug 21, 2018
8:52 AM
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Initially I was uncomfortable with high keyed harps. Playing in a blues-rock band, at one point I was creating a harp part for an original song in F# -- of course, on my B harp. The song-writer/bandleader then encouraged me to do something on the F# harp instead. Initially I struggled. But gradually I got more fluent with the higher key harp. After months of practice and gigging, my wailing F# harp became a really nice signature part of that song, and I now love playing it... but it took me some time to get there.
I think the Special 20s in F and F# sound really sweet. I mostly stay in the bottom six holes, but I've really come to enjoy playing high-keyed harps (including High G), especially live.
So give that F harp a chance... you might grow to love it.
Last Edited by AppalachiaBlues on Aug 22, 2018 12:13 AM
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johnleewfan
21 posts
Aug 21, 2018
10:39 AM
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First position on a C harp?
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BeelzeBob
53 posts
Aug 21, 2018
5:54 PM
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AppBlues, I gave my F a good workout today and I felt a little better better about it. I'll keep at it.
Now I'm thinking an Ab Powerbender might be good for C blues tunes. Anybody tried that? I looked on youtube for examples and they were all minor key. Most of our C tunes are not minor.
Last Edited by BeelzeBob on Aug 21, 2018 5:56 PM
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BnT
178 posts
Aug 22, 2018
12:46 AM
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Congrats on getting out there. It's a jam so try different things and don't worry if it's not quite what you want. C is not a great key.
· Try F (to start a song), switch to low F while backing others, and back to F when you solo.
· C in 1st - on the right song, but not as your go to
· Bb in 3rd? Why not? Great for swings (minor key songs not required). Just work on it. Practice at home, then the jam. It can give you that chromatic feel. If you forget where to go just remember the "Shake Your Moneymaker" groove. Here's a link to something in Bb with an Ab harp - it was a new, original song, never performed, with guys I'd never played with - so basically, this was practice...and I'd never knowingly played 3rd position on stage before. https://youtu.be/kV7476gLhrs
· Work out a song you can sing in Eb or F (so you'll play an Ab or Bb). Let the guitarists suffer the way you do with songs in C.
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BnT
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SuperBee
5561 posts
Aug 22, 2018
3:46 AM
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Hi BnT, can you please elaborate a little more about what you mean by “if you forget where to go just remember the shake your moneymaker groove”?
Thanks,
Dave
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Andrew
1810 posts
Aug 22, 2018
5:28 AM
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Your moneymaker is perhaps suitably vague, but your moneymaker groove? No, maybe best not to go there.
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Todd Parrott
1459 posts
Aug 22, 2018
8:36 AM
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Some folks may hate the higher key harps, but if you examine the range in which you’re playing against other instruments, like guitar, you’ll find that your licks played between holes 2 thru 6 match up with the same octave range as the guitar. (Same is true for other instruments). However, many times guitar licks will dip below the normal range of the harp, so in those instances a 13-hole harp comes in handy. Same thing happens too in the key of G when using a C harp. So, the harps are tuned like they are for a reason. Still, I think there are times when a low F is appropriate, and times when a high G is a better tool for the job. Players sometimes frown on F harps, but have no problem playing the same licks in 3rd position on a Bb..... which is in the same range. 6 draw on a Bb is the same as 4 draw on an F.
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SuperBee
5562 posts
Aug 22, 2018
9:06 AM
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But but but...
You can get down to 1 draw on the Bb which is an octave lower than 2 draw on the F
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Todd Parrott
1460 posts
Aug 22, 2018
10:35 AM
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Which is why either a low F can be used or a Lucky 13. Still, players tend to hang out around 4, 5 and 6 for many of their 3rd position licks and no one seems to mind it, but play the same licks on an F in 2nd position and all of a sudden it’s too screechy.
Same thing can be said about playing 1st position licks on a G on holes 8, 9 and 10 - do that and people think it sounds cool. Do the same licks on a C in 2nd position using bends and overblows on holes 6 thru 9 and you’ll hear comments like, “that sounds too shrill to my ears, etc.”
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BnT
179 posts
Aug 22, 2018
9:59 PM
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Superbee -
Dave,
I don't think 3rd position is rocket science after a little practice, but starting out if you're not sure where to go next, you can start tongue
blocking or chording the melody line of "...shake your money maker, shake your money maker..." and it provides a pretty good fill.
How's the mic working out?
Kevin - BnT
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SuperBee
5563 posts
Aug 23, 2018
2:53 AM
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Thanks Kevin, I understand.
The biscuit took me a little time to get to grips but I like it now. I think it probably is better for my hands.
I put an old Shure element in it; sounds good through the Sonny Jr
Dave
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johnleewfan
24 posts
Aug 26, 2018
2:28 PM
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First position on a C harp?
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So, no, huh?
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BeelzeBob
54 posts
Aug 26, 2018
4:12 PM
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I'm starting to get the hang of using a Bb harp on a tune in C. I did some good stuff practicing. I tried it at the jam and it went okay, not as good as my practice, but that happens a lot. I switched back and forth between my F and Bb. I cannot get the hole 3 bend for any length of time on the F.
JLWfan, I've heard some great stuff in first position, of course, but I've never been able to do much with it.
Thanks to all who have offered help, I appreciate it!
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jbone
2684 posts
Aug 26, 2018
8:44 PM
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Bob, it's all about practice and repetition. You will get better if you work at it.
Another thought is, you could look at say 5th position or other positions to get different emphasis on compatible notes. I admit I do very little past 1st 2nd 3rd but there is a song or two we do that cry out for 5th.
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Music and travel destroy prejudice.
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HoundogT18
1 post
Aug 30, 2018
9:50 AM
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I only use a low F miked up with a band, wouldn't use it acoustically. Whats the problem with using a standard F in a jam session? ok its high pitched but its gotta be to cut through all the other noise!
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snowman
364 posts
Sep 03, 2018
9:51 AM
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On any key harp-- its sometimes hard to cut through the mix-
Bands [guitars bass drums keys]-invariably get louder as the night goes on-- this is fine for them --not fine for vocal mics or HARP MICS---
HARP MICS HAVE A LIMIT B4 FEEDBACK--with or without an anti feedback pedal
A low tuned or a normal F will have a much better chance of cutting through the mix with a "Sonic Stomp pedal"
read up on it---hard to explain--
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jbone
2689 posts
Sep 03, 2018
10:05 AM
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One other thought. In 2nd on a F, you can do some octave stuff on a turnaround, cover 4 holes, block the 2 middle, which is a bigger sound and not maybe as sharp.
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Music and travel destroy prejudice.
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Michael Rubin
1213 posts
Sep 10, 2018
4:20 AM
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I actually learned mandolin to solve this problem but I suggest chromatic. I know it may seem like a radical idea. However, if you get a Bb chrome, 3rd position is C. If you stay with a standard C chrome and study George Smith's Chicago City and Boogieing with George you will see that chromatic in C is doable.
So consider:
Regular F
Low F
regular and low C
Bb
Bb chromatic
C chromatic
Second innstrument
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Zach Nickles
3 posts
Sep 12, 2018
5:09 AM
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With good bend articulation, and practice with phrasing- 5th position can certainly add some flavor...ive been working on it lately myself
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