Rockin Daddy
22 posts
Feb 28, 2018
10:45 AM
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I know this subject has been talked about in detail, but not in one place. I want to do a speaker swap in my Bassman LTD, I have done tube swaps(power tubes, biasing, and 12AY7 in the #1 preamp), played with every combination of settings and I'm still not happy with the tone I'm getting from it. It sounds cold and thin sounding and I know a speaker swap is my next item to try. I was thinking of a few combinations, I've heard about Weber 10A125, Eminence Alpha 10, and Eminence Lil Buddy speakers, so my question is does anyone have any sound clips or videos with these in their Bassman LTD's?
I was thinking of 2 Weber 10A125 speakers in the top and either 2 Lil Buddy speakers in the bottom or a Lil Buddy and Alpha 10 for the bottom. I've heard the Webers might lose some volume, and Lil Buddy's can overpower with bass, and then I saw some older posts about Alpha 10's being dark.
All of these terms are subjective(dark, warm, cold, thin), so I wondered if anyone here with all the available knowledge has found a combination they like. The stock Jensen RI speakers are not sounding good at all, so I'm thinking it's time for a change.
I am sorry to beat the Bassman horse, but this amp was a gift, and I want to be able to rave about them like so many harp players do, but the stock speakers are just not cutting it. And I can't just blow money on speakers and then be in the same unhappy boat, so I'm looking to everyone here for their advice.
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1847
4736 posts
Feb 28, 2018
5:05 PM
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i have a p10q re-issue in my amp along with a re-coned vintage p10q. i think they sound fine.
i don't think a speaker swap is going to perform any miracles.
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1847
4737 posts
Feb 28, 2018
5:19 PM
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Joe_L
2825 posts
Feb 28, 2018
7:00 PM
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Go to David Barrett’s site. Check out what Mark Overman has done with these amps with just speaker swaps, tube swaps and adjusting the bias.
Last Edited by Joe_L on Feb 28, 2018 7:01 PM
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Rockin Daddy
23 posts
Feb 28, 2018
7:36 PM
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Unfortunately I'm not a member of his site so I can't see the info you are referencing.
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Joe_L
2826 posts
Feb 28, 2018
9:26 PM
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Well, the barrier to entry is low. Buy a hohner harp and they give you a free month. Some things are worth paying for. This is likely one of them.
The answer is going to be reconed vintage Jensens. Not the new ones. Weber 10A125-O with a H Dust cap is an alternative. I don’t remember the tube swaps.
Last Edited by Joe_L on Feb 28, 2018 9:30 PM
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Bass410man
172 posts
Mar 01, 2018
5:10 AM
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You should sell the LTD. and get one of earlier reissues with with the blue frame speakers, and then start your tube swap again. The jenson speakers arn’t even in the same ballpark as the blue frames. IMO
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barbequebob
3478 posts
Mar 01, 2018
9:42 AM
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Those blue Eminence made alnicos used in the first Bassman Reissues are no longer made, but the Weber 10A125 absolutely NAILS the sound of a real Jensen speaker that was used in the original '59 Bassman (which I own and still use), HANDS DOWN!!! Those built to the exact same specs as the originals from the paper, glue, glueing technique and the voice coils. Personally, the newer Jensen P10R reissues suck.
As far as the power tubes, the only new production power tubes that you want in there to get close to the real deal is either the Tung Sol 5881 reissues or the new 5881's now being made by JJ.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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1847
4740 posts
Mar 01, 2018
10:01 AM
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they still make the blue frame speaker, they are just painted black. notice the 2 mojo tone speakers in the above photo. they may still make them in blue.
everyone raves about the webers, can't go wrong there.
i have heard some great players, and i asked, what speakers are you using? re- issue jensens... go figure.
i like to swap speakers, i am having some cables made so i can change easier.
i may possibly be trying 2 wgs veteran speakers, i have the 8 inch version in my champ and it sounds great.
blue frame
same speaker but half the price
Last Edited by 1847 on Mar 01, 2018 10:49 AM
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Littoral
1575 posts
Mar 01, 2018
10:45 AM
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I think the right amount of breaking in speakers may be a big deal. I haven't done it much but my primary experience taught me a lot. 1960 Brown Concert -I have the original speakers and need to get them reconed. I put in 2 Webers (10A125-O-H Dust cap) and 2 WGS Veterans. Ceramic/Alnico mix. The break in has taken a lot longer than I thought but now the amp is back to reigning terror. For the original break in I ran a PA head through the speakers (not the head) playing a rap radio station for 10 days -all day- while I was at work. I buried the cabinet in comforters and the neighbors still complained. It helped but not like I thought it should have. I think the karma of my "music" choice was the problem. It's been two years and after gigging a lot with it now I guess I'm back in good graces.
Charred ruins across the land.
Last Edited by Littoral on Mar 01, 2018 10:48 AM
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1847
4742 posts
Mar 01, 2018
4:51 PM
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here is a sonny jr. it is currently for sale on ebay.
the speakers are 2 eminence 102 ceramic and what i am guessing are 2 weber speakers.
didn't sonny jr spend a considerable amount of time researching what he thought worked best? i would think he has a pretty good idea on what works.
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tomaxe
113 posts
Mar 01, 2018
8:36 PM
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I like Littoral's story of breaking in the speakers! Hilarious! I for one DO think that breaking in the speakers is necessary to some degree. Not sure I'd go that far, though!
My Bassman clone (Weber kit) was built in the early 2000s. I have gigged with it hundreds of times over the years. It has a speaker mix of 3 Weber sig 10As (2 ridged, one smooth) and then on the bottom right (looking at the back of the amp) is a Weber 10F150 that says "Ferromax" on the back. This speaker is more powerful, punchy and bassy than the others.
I really know nothing about speakers, but this speaker mix came at the recommendation of Ted Weber, who I emailed back then, when he was still alive.
It sounds pretty awesome for me. I have always been happy with it.
It is important to remember, though, that The Bassman is essentially a loud, clean amp, that accents the lower mids that are the sweet spot of amplified harp playing, and should be played loud. It needs to be opened up, and the warmth and distortion come from a combo of matching the right mic and your talent. Straight in, without pedals, this amp needs you to really compress your sound with proper technique/tone. Lots of guys use it very successfully with pedals for all different kinds of sounds unrelated to classic blues harp. It all depends on what you are trying to do and what you are looking to accomplish. The original poster doesn't really say if he uses any pedals and what his mic is, or what kind of sound he is going for. That's important to know. Hope this info helps.
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barbequebob
3480 posts
Mar 02, 2018
8:20 AM
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@1847 -- Sorry, but the new Eminence 1028K's you're referring to are NOT the same speakers at all and it's more than just the paint job. They certainly ARE good speakers but not quite the same as the original blue painted Eminence Legend 102's that were used in the first Bassman reissues and the Pro Junior until late 1995 and for one thing, the voice coils on the 1028K's are larger than the Legend 102's were.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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BnT
153 posts
Mar 02, 2018
9:17 AM
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I swapped out the speakers in my Bassman and am very happy with the results. I use it both as a Bassman and as a speaker cabinet for my Masco. When I researched I found a lot of comments but didn't find many meaningful reviews of speakers or speaker combos for harp. And most speaker clips show someone playing guitar through the speaker. So here is how it worked out.
Two Eminence Blue Frames on top (I have one for sale right now https://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/msg/d/eminence-10-blue-frame/6513526664.html). I agree with barbequebob that the 1028K's are not the same at all.
On the bottom: one Weber 10A125-0 and one 10F125-0 (an alnico and a ceramic - one is ribbed and one smooth). For playing traditional Chicago blues and the combination of the four speakers provide early break-up, plenty of bottom, and great sound variation and texture.
Want vintage, broken-in paper in new cones? Per Weber - a little fabric softener sprayed on a paper towel and gently rubbed on the paper. Just go easy - better a 2nd or 3rd application than overdoing it, saturating and ripping the paper.
Tubes: I recommend and only use NOS tubes. Current day tubes are not the same. You'll have to experiment with the order to see what you like, but one each 12AT7 (60% gain), 12Ay7 (44% gain), 12AU7 (20% gain) - good for tone quality and feedback reduction. Replace the 6L6's with 5881's. NOS 5881's are a lot warmer sounding than today's 6L6's.
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BnT
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1847
4744 posts
Mar 02, 2018
9:48 AM
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they both have a one inch voice coil.
the older ones had a paper former, the newer ones are plastic. does a plastic former sound different? maybe a tiny, tiny bit.
if you were to sit blindfolded and compared them both, it would be extremely hard to discern between the 2 and if you did hear a difference,you may just pick the newer model.
here are the specs
i had one of the first bassmans to roll off the line, a friend of mine works for fender. we discussed the speakers at great length.
Last Edited by 1847 on Mar 02, 2018 9:52 AM
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BnT
154 posts
Mar 02, 2018
11:40 AM
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1847 - I guess it's one's ear and personal preference. I tried both and preferred the older blue frames. It's a subtle difference, just like NOS tubes, but that's what sounds best to MY ear.
I inquired from Eminence and the folks there referred to the 1028K and Blue Frame Alnico as "similar" in sound and design, "but not the same". The 30W Blue Frames were made in the USA. The 35W 1028K's of the past few years are Chinese made. The Kapton formers allow them to dissipate more heat - so (especially for guitar players) you can push them harder and longer (and you've got an extra 5 watts).
On a technical basis, a paper former is lighter than kapton due to intrinsic density and thickness. Paper density is about 0.5 grams p/cc; kapton, 1.42 grams p/cc. So, kapton is almost 3 times heavier; and paper has 1/2 the water density...for whatever that's worth.
There's an old sales adage, "sell what you've got, not what you've not". Skeptic that I am, when a salesman or manufacturers' rep recommend their current or new product over prior, proven incarnations of the same product (as being the same or just as good), I keep that adage in mind.
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BnT
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1847
4745 posts
Mar 02, 2018
11:57 AM
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i would agree that paper is lighter than plastic, and that it may have a small effect on the sound.
there maybe one other difference and that is with the suspension. the old jensens had a small spyder. the 1028k has a larger spyder.
can you take a picture of the spyder on your speaker that you have for sale? i have a suspicion it may be a little smaller as well.
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Littoral
1576 posts
Mar 02, 2018
12:05 PM
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tomaxe said: "... a combo of matching the right mic and your talent."
That can't be emphasized enough. It's a pain in the ass cause you just don't know until you find the combination that does it. That, and being patient with some proper settings and tube swaps. One thing that helped me a whole lot was to track down experienced players and meet to swap rigs and various permutations of our gear. That was a real eye opener -and I won't say who but he better keep an eye on that mic of his. :)
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Littoral
1577 posts
Mar 02, 2018
12:05 PM
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tomaxe said: "... a combo of matching the right mic and your talent."
That can't be emphasized enough. It's a pain in the ass cause you just don't know until you find the combination that does it. That, and being patient with some proper settings and tube swaps. One thing that helped me a whole lot was to track down experienced players and meet to swap rigs and various permutations of our gear. That was a real eye opener -and I won't say who but he better keep an eye on that mic of his. :)
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Barley Nectar
1350 posts
Mar 02, 2018
3:21 PM
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Thin, mine don't sound thin. Mods: 5U4 recto, 12AY7 in V1....that's it! Has stock Blues in it. BTW, you can mod the circuit a lot cheeper then buying speakers. May be the amp has a problem. Find a good tech.
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1847
4751 posts
Mar 04, 2018
11:37 AM
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i am going to drop a couple of these in my bassman...
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1847
4752 posts
Mar 05, 2018
9:07 AM
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"On a technical basis, a paper former is lighter than kapton due to intrinsic density and thickness"
i learned something new, i like to learn new things. i also assumed that plastic was heavier and thicker... it is not.
a polymide former is thinner and lighter. it is similar to celluloid film. remember when we used to use film, way back in the day?
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bonedog569
1098 posts
Mar 08, 2018
7:11 PM
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I had a non LMTD RI for a few years and finally sold it. The green re-issue speaker that came in it where as bad as everyone says- just lifeless. I tried a lot of break in and doping the edges - nothing helped. I got some old stock blue ones online plus used one little buddy and things got better (and heavier) - BUT - that amp still has to be played pretty loud to really 'give it up' IMO. I haven't been playing huge rooms and don't like to play super loud.
I've moved on to old Gibsons - GA20 and others, and 5 watt Airline (with a 12") that actually holds it own with live bands and jams that aren't too out of control volume wise. Good luck with your quest.
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