|
Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Playing with a band
Playing with a band
Page:
1
Fil
269 posts
Jan 28, 2017
3:21 PM
|
Hvyjhad a great post on BBQ Bob's time thread. I clipped this from it. At the jam I've begun attending, I'm just another instrument in the band. I know enough not to step on another's solo and play less rather than more. I also know that's not all there is to it. But it's a new experience for me. What else is important for someone like me to remember?
"Recordings of this kind don't teach us how to function effectively in a musical environment where the harmonica is just another instrument in the band."
----------
Phil Pennington
Last Edited by Fil on Jan 28, 2017 3:41 PM
|
jbone
2233 posts
Jan 28, 2017
9:54 PM
|
I certainly don't know it all but I would say, when you do get your moment, make every note work. Many times a few notes well played is better than a staccato blast of many notes.
Occasionally doubling with the guitar or keys for a little accent is a good thing but moderation is key there imho.
I have been in many spots with a harp from solo to duo to sideman in a band, to front man. Each situation is different and has different requirements.
Most times I have gone into a new situation with little idea what to do, but also mostly I have striven to be polite as a person and a musician and this has served me well.
Hearing oneself in the mix of a band or jam setting can be a big education!
----------
Reverbnation
Facebook
Youtube
|
didjcripey
1069 posts
Jan 28, 2017
11:13 PM
|
Relax and enjoy yourself!
If you're having fun the audience picks up on it and enjoy it too.
But especially, relax!
----------
Lucky Lester
|
snowman
238 posts
Jan 29, 2017
2:34 PM
|
Jams can be frustrating--Everyone usually assumes your just another obnoxious harp player- so in my opinion u have to lay back n wait---
Maybe ask who, IF anyone, is doing the fills between singing--is it; one of the guitar guys keyboards -no one-etc can I do a couple?--
Find out if yr going thru Pa or an amp?
What key is song?
I ask "what are the chords"? If they give the 'shut up hacker look" I ask is the I minor or major[dominent]? What about the IV minor or major?
The first guy I ever played in front of people with said, " Do everything in slow motion" people tend to play to hard and to fast when nervous.
Relax and enjoy yourself ! agree
I hope I wasn't too negative ---I've been on probably 14 blues cruises-This last october 2016--was the worst for the jams===they had 4-5 less jams than normal-- A very crappy small amp-usually right behind u--I could never hear myself-- anyway have fun
|
Fil
270 posts
Jan 30, 2017
6:39 AM
|
Thanks very much. Polite, few notes well played, slow motion, relax and enjoy...added to the list. As in most things there's there is no magic answer.
----------
Phil Pennington
|
barbequebob
3368 posts
Jan 30, 2017
11:56 AM
|
Being a good musician playing in a band has nothing to do with the equipment you're going to. Being a good musician, regardless of what instrument you play is more than just playing abilities. It's also about having an important fundamental skill and that skill is listening to EVERY minhute detail of what's going on around you 24/7/365 and often times, jammers don't do that and reemind me of a Geroge Carlin joke from the 70's, where the line goes, "Hey, I look good in the store front window!"
Sometimes teh best thing is to lay out and listen to things, like the chord changes. If you're among the many non pro players who think that learning time and basic music theory ain't your job, you've basically screwed yourself up and played right into the very negative stereotypes non harp players have about harp players and you can call those people idiots all you want, but not developing those skills and not learning to listen carefully makes you even dumber than they are, like it or not.
I know saying what I said in the above paragraph will most likely get me called rude, uncivil, or anything else nasty you can think of, but I stand by this 100% because far too often for most harp players comfort, it happens to be the ugly truth. Part of the problem also stems from the fact that many harp players hold themselves to a much lower musical standard than those who play other instruments.
Jams can be fine for getting your feet wet, but the flip side of the jam is that it's also the one place where you can far too easily learn the worst possible habits plus many of the jammers are often far from knowledgeable about anything and if you read my article that I have a link to in the Time thread, I've got a list of the many dumb things you will easy learn in a jam that's totally wrong headed.
----------
Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
|
6SN7
687 posts
Jan 30, 2017
1:04 PM
|
BBQ Bob hit it on the head again. My only advise is to learn several songs well that you can call out rather than be ready to jam in a certain key. There is nothing wrong with playing a well rehearsed, practiced, 24 bar solo.
I went to a jam this weekend where the jam master put several of the "lesser musical knowledge" musicians on the band stand together. i have seen these folks play in the past with other musicians more accomplished who lead the band or were the singers. in that case, those people just played along and it was ok. This time, they were required to lead the band. It was a disaster. They played "Going Down" for 10 minutes, going round and round and round. It reminded me of someone learning to ride a bike and once they get going, they could not stop. Needless to say, the song ended in a train crash.
Last Edited by 6SN7 on Jan 30, 2017 1:07 PM
|
Fil
271 posts
Jan 30, 2017
2:22 PM
|
From BBQ..." If you're among the many non pro players who think that learning time and basic music theory ain't your job, you've basically screwed yourself up and played right into the very negative stereotypes non harp players have about harp players and you can call those people idiots all you want, but not developing those skills and not learning to listen carefully makes you even dumber than they are, like it or not."
I'm not among them. Take a breath. And sometimes an open jam is all you got.
6SN7, my song list is growing. The one consistent piece of advice I've heard is learn songs. Well, two...less is more. If I can't contribute I lay out.
----------
Phil Pennington
Last Edited by Fil on Jan 30, 2017 2:23 PM
|
hvyj
3211 posts
Jan 31, 2017
10:03 AM
|
What does an amateur musician think about when he is on stage with a band? Usually what he is playing or about to play.
What does a competent professional musician think about when he is in stage playing with a band? How what he is playing or about to play fits with what the rest of the band is playing.
What does a limited musician play? He plays what he CAN (is able to) play. And if all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail.
The challenge is that we don't know what we don't know. So it's easy to be oblivious to things we are doing or not doing that are musically counterproductive. One solution is to always try to play with musicians who are better than you are and LISTEN to what they do. Ask questions and LISTEN to the answers, which may not always be what you want to hear. In my experience, a lot of the better musicians were taking into account musical considerations I didn't even know existed let alone how to take into account. Learning/growth is often uncomfortable.
Don't make excuses. I don't pretend to be a pro but most of the musicians I gig with are. One difference between pros and amateurs that really stuck me hard is that if something is not right a pro recognizes and freely acknowledges when he/she has fucked up. Then they correct it and we all move on. Most amateurs/wannabes tend to make excuses or argue, giving you reasons why it's not their fault. EXAMPLE: I was on a gig as a sideman at a venue with very live acoustics and there was a percussionist in the band who was playing way too loud. The bandleader told him he was too loud, but the percussionist argued with him saying "It's not me, it's the room." Go figure... Another time I was just sitting in with a band that played "Long Black Veil," which is a very somber tune. The drummer (who was not very good to begin with) was beating the living shit out of the drums all through the song. When another musician told him later that his playing was too busy on that tune, the drummer argued saying "there's more than one version of that tune." Maybe so, but it's nice to play the same version that the rest of the band is playing. So, if a better musician tells you something it's better to listen and think about it instead of getting defensive.
Always let the music breathe. What you DON'T play is at least as important as what you do play.
Where to start? Like Bob sez, there's nothing more fundamental or important than good time.
FWIW.
Last Edited by hvyj on Jan 31, 2017 11:12 AM
|
Fil
272 posts
Jan 31, 2017
10:43 AM
|
HVYJ,
Worth a lot.
----------
Phil Pennington
Last Edited by Fil on Jan 31, 2017 10:44 AM
|
barbequebob
3369 posts
Feb 01, 2017
8:46 AM
|
HvyJ nails it on the head and the thing 6SN7 says about that jam are the classic problems I see at 95% of the open jams and what he heard was a train wreck because the musicians on the bandstand all had HORRIBLE time. Why is time important??? If you have lousy time, your rhythm is going to be lousy and because of lousy time, there's absolute ZERO groove to work with and no matter how good any lead player is or think he/she is, being surrounded by musicians with lousy time will ALWAYS bring you down and make you look and sound just as lousy or worse than they are, and so taking tons of long solos when this is happening makes everything sound totally incoherent and largely bores the living crap out of the audience and NOBODY can dance, snap their fingers, tap their feet to a band with musicians with lousy time and music that's totally grooveless.
A big part of the problem is that jammers often think that playing a jam is the same as playing in a REAL band in a REAL gig, but that is NOT the case at all and the stuff you see in jam won't ever be tolerated for a nanosecond.
Trying to get your time together in an open jam ain't gonna happen because for learning that, open jams are the WORST place possible for that because most of the other jammers, including the bass players and drummers often have lousy time and jammers too often believe in the myth of a groove not suited for harmonica, which is NOT true at all. The real truth is the harp player's ability to ADJUST to the groove and feel and the song lyrics itself and too often harp players take a one size fits all approach which ALWAYS gets them into trouble, and the other thing is being around musicians with lousy time and if you get to see Carl A's videos from open jams (this is not picking on him, but he unknowingly gave examples of what I'm saying) and being around musicians with lousy time, which means that you'll never be playing at your optimum best when surrounded by musicians like that.
When you're around musicians at a pro or near pro level, be prepared to be around people who are often very brutally honest (I certainly am one who definitely is) and you're gonna have to learn to compartmentalize things and not take criticism as personal slights and many jammers and really lousy musicians take everything personally and it always gets them into trouble. Unlike the way a jammer listens to music, which too often tends to be solos first and everything else often dead last, musicians like that, especially a band leader, along with recording engineers and record producers pay strict attention to EVERY minute detail of what's going on and the stuff you think as too small, too boring and too unimportant for you to be bothered with, often times are very subtle things jammers generally pay little or no attention to makes a HUMONGOUS difference in how everything comes out in the end.
My article about time was to help teach you to play the music as well as LISTEN to the music more like musicians who are at a pro/near pro level, recording engineer, bandleader, or a record producer hears things and what makes the difference between jammers and everyone else and to help improve you as a musician.
HvyJ doesn't consider himself a pro, but being surrounded by pros, he's learned to listen and play more like a pro, and that's something you're almost NEVER going to learn in an open jam.
----------
Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by barbequebob on Feb 01, 2017 9:12 AM
|
Fil
273 posts
Feb 01, 2017
9:34 AM
|
First thing we do, we close down all the open jams.... I think most of us here get the point.
----------
Phil Pennington
|
RyanMortos
1601 posts
Feb 01, 2017
9:59 AM
|
I must be blessed with some good open jams around me. Many of them are lead and organized by pros and the jammers get to play alongside them.
----------
~Ryan
See My Profile for contact info, etc.
|
Barley Nectar
1286 posts
Feb 01, 2017
11:34 AM
|
Well, I'm sure some of this is true. I have spent a lot of time at jam sessions. Some times it's great and sometime, not so good. I always have fun whether I play or not. I learned my chops and timing at these jams. I do believe both are somewhat hereditary though. So, according to the general sentiment of this thread, I should suck! Hmm...
Well, I walked in to North Country Brewing in Slippery Rock PA Monday night. Bubs McKeg, John DeCola, Mike Sweeney and Bob Peckman were on stage. These fellows are from the Pittsburgh blues scene and are senior pro musicians. One of the many bands they are in is the Rhythm Aces. The minuet these guys went on break, Sweeney, who is Jimmy Adler's bass man said, Hey Goose, did you bring your horns? I had a 7 pack in the coat pocket. Yep. I was told, your up next set. This was not a jam, it was a paid gig, I did not ask to play. I am deeply honored to be asked.
So, how can this be? Why do these fine musicians ask a jam hack to set in???
I am so lucky to have learned my skills from countless musicians, players, jamers and hacks that have broadened my abilities.
To all the fledgling players reading this thread I say, Go to the Jams, pay attention, be courteous, participate, have fun and don't let ANYONE tell you that there is nothing good to be learned!! ...Goose
Last Edited by Barley Nectar on Feb 01, 2017 12:30 PM
|
SuperBee
4470 posts
Feb 01, 2017
12:19 PM
|
Hey Goose!
|
Barley Nectar
1287 posts
Feb 01, 2017
12:32 PM
|
LOL, Thanks Supe...
|
hvyj
3217 posts
Feb 01, 2017
12:58 PM
|
@Barley Nectar: I don't necessarily agree with Bob's assessment that playing at open jams is going to damage your development. But the quality of the musicians and the jams in general varies so you need to recognize what you are dealing with on a case by case basis so you don't delude yourself.
If high caliber musicians like playing with you you must be doing something right that they enjoy.
As you say, heredity may have something to do with it. Some of us are blessed with a great ear which helps. I'm certainly not one of them, but I've always had a pretty decent sense of rythym which helps in a different way. Attitude has a lot to do with it, too.
EXAMPLE: There's a local sax player who plays in a cover band and frequents the local blues jams. He is an experienced player and he solos and plays horn parts very decently, but he won't stop playing. After his solo he continues to noodle and steps all over other musicians' solos and sometimes the vocals. He's been politely told by different musicians not to do this and always apologizes and says somethig like "Aw, I just get too excited and get carried away." But he continues to do it and now most of the really good players won't get up to play if he's on stage because they are tired of putting up with it. I'm willing to bet that if the pros who invite you to sit in at their gig give you advice or a suggestion, you take it to heart and don't repeat mistakes they've been kind enough to bring to your attention (which also means you are continuing to improve and it's fun to play with someone who gets better because it's stimulating). I'm also willing to bet that you adapt to whatever is being played instead of trying to force fit canned licks over whatever the material is.
Over the years I did a lot of playing whatever with whoever and learned a lot doing that. Maybe I'm getting arrogant in my old age but these days I'm a little more selective. But I'm also fortunate enough to have regular paying gigs of my own so I'm not starving for opportunities to play.
Last Edited by hvyj on Feb 01, 2017 1:24 PM
|
Spderyak
118 posts
Feb 01, 2017
1:10 PM
|
A long thread..I haven't read it all, but one of the most important parts of playing with a band is to act like the audience actually means something to you.
I think others have alluded to that as well. All well and nice to play you're best...but not necessarily for just other musicians (which is expected) but for the people who have come out for a good time...
A little smile and thank you goes a long way in most any language.
Far more than the I'm the best musican you've ever heard approach...
|
hvyj
3218 posts
Feb 01, 2017
1:17 PM
|
Yes! Respect for the stage and respect for the audience is as important as respect for the music and the other musicians. That's certainly an important part of the attitude thing.
|
barbequebob
3372 posts
Feb 02, 2017
11:01 AM
|
Now, just for some clarification here, I'm going to go on the record and tell you that not all jams are horrible, but they do vary quite a lot. The usual open jams can be a nightmare because for some of the host bands, it's their only gig and some of those host bands are horrible and they tend to be the most disorganized as well as having the lousiest jammers around from personal observation.
The type of jams many jammer bitch and moan about, the so called special invite/pro/snob jam, the quality of the host band tends to be far and away superior to the vast majority of open jams and are often run by actual gigging area blues pros and they're gonna draw in a considerably better quality level of jammers, including many at or near pro level and those are the ones that you learn the right stuff from.
I agree with many things said in HvyJ's last post because there's tons of truth in it.
I ran a jam for about a year and unlike some host bands that I've seen where once they get thru with their 30 minute opening set before bringing in the jammers, many just go somewhere to drink and don't pay attention what's going on. I always made it a point to listen CAREFULLY to everything that's happening and carefully observe EVERY jammer and every single thing they're doing on the bandstand and a lot crap I had seen at too many open jams like volume fights and other crap like that, I'm right the hell in your face and won't put up with it,even if I gotta personally unplug you right then and there with your posse around you.
The better jammers I'd give a chance to play with my band and see if being around better musicians they either step up to the plate and shine or shrink because they've been surrounded by some awful jammers with awful habits had unfortunately rubbed off on them.
There was a night that we only had 8 jammers altogether and they were all bass players, believe it or not and so they all got to play with my band. Half of them were absolutely god awful because they had horrible time and it was a nightmare keeping a groove together with them and their time problems got much worse when given a solo. The other half were good players with good time, with two of them that could easily fit what I was doing (and for me, you have to be able to play both electric and upright bass and know more than just 10 basic blues bass lines), and the other two, both would not fit the thing I do, but for some other gigging bands, they'd work pretty well for, just like the other two, I got their contact info and many times other bandleaders, especially inf they're in a pinch, I have plenty of phone numbers to give them.
For every jam that has a really good house band that attracts really good jammers, too often the lousy ones outnumber the good ones by about a 5 to one margin. Here in the Boston, MA area on a Sunday within a 50 mile radius, there used to be as many as 20 different jams, but that has whittled down considerably because of many of the things I've mentioned, which wound up boring audiences so much that they no longer drew enough non musician audience to keep it alive, let alone jammers and many of them had the same people trolling them all who still can't get as few as 3 songs they knew together one bit and largely just musically stagnated. Like it or not, audiences do tire of haring music that has no groove and musicians with lousy time ain't got no groove and you have to have good time to have good rhythm.
----------
Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
|
BnT
14 posts
Feb 02, 2017
1:09 PM
|
Jams are inherently dangerous for harp players. Consider:
- Most jammers understand "12-bar shuffle" (in some manner) but calling out a particular song often generates blank stares.
- If you play harp and don't sing you're at the mercy of the singer. Guitarists, bass players, etc usually do guitar focused songs, so you better be good at playing horn or piano type fills.
- If you say "Green Onions" baseline, "box" or "Sonny Boy shuffle" and the bass player has ??? coming out of his head, change the song.
- Don't rehearse a 16 or 8 bar blues and expect jammers to stay there for more than one verse.
- Lots of jammers are rockers who think a 12-bar frame means they're playing blues; often guys with something to prove, not something to say. That's what volume controls are for whether you crank up or turn way down and wait for the train wreck to end.
Keep practicing, working to be the best player you can be. That's all there really is - and maybe some nights you get the right jammers everyone sounds better.
----------
BnT
|
hvyj
3221 posts
Feb 02, 2017
1:18 PM
|
YA DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW. True story: For years I'd go to open jams and open mics. I'd usually do ok at the jams, but more often than not I'd really struggle at the singer/songwriter type of open mics. At first I thought that absence of drums was throwing me off. But after I got to a point where my time and meter was better than some of the weaker drummers I decided that couldn't be it. So, then I started to think that maybe my style of playing just worked better with drums.
Then I got invited to an open mic run by a musician friend of mine who had extensive formal training and would very patiently instruct and train some of the aspiring singer/songwriters who would stop in. Well, as it turns out, the problems I had been experiencing, for the most part, had very little to do with me. I learned that a lot of these singer/songwriter types most often played by themselves and never learned how to play with other people. So chord changes were often not consistent, and sometimes meter was irregular and the absence of consistent structure was making it objectively impossible to accompany these guys.
Once my friend patiently straightened them out I was able to accompany them with no problem. Quite a revelation for me. I had been blaming myself and feeling inadequate about something that really wasn't my fault. I had always assumed all those musicians knew more than I did. Live and learn...
Last Edited by hvyj on Feb 02, 2017 1:30 PM
|
barbequebob
3376 posts
Feb 03, 2017
8:29 AM
|
HvyJ -- You're basically saying something that I've been saying for years, meaning that if you're surrounded by horrible musicians, they can seriously bring you down and often you learn everything wrong in the book but once you're around better musicians, you learn better habits and become a better musician.
@BnT -- Lots of truth being told by you. Too many jammmers seem to think that playing in a jam is the same as playing in a REAL band, and from experience, it really isn't close to that one bit.
Learning a total of 6 songs may get you by in an open jam, but in a REAL band situation, you're gonna have to know the arrangements for ALL the tunes and you're gonna have to figure that in many clubs, you're gonna be doing at least 2-3 sets and in some cases, 4 or 5 sets and just stretching tunes out with long jams ain't gonna cut it, especially with bands who have musicians with lousy time and bands like that will bore the audiences to death and don't be surprised if the crowd is largely gone half way thru the night. For doing at least 3 sets, you're gonna need to know at least 30 tunes from top to bottom and possibly at least another 10 or 20 more if you happen to do gigs where the gig requires 4 or 5 sets. That's the reality of a real band, not the fantasy of an open jam.
----------
Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by barbequebob on Feb 03, 2017 9:31 AM
|
hvyj
3223 posts
Feb 03, 2017
2:10 PM
|
Getting told what to do or not do by a musically competent bandleader can be great for the player and the music.
My personal pet peeve is dealing with what I call make believe bandleaders. These are typically musicians who have a limited range of skills and big egos who give the musicians they are playing with very elaborate and detailed instructions supposedly with the objective making the music sound right but whose actual motivation is to make sure none of the other musicians to do anything that may take the make believe bandleader out of his (usually narrow) comfort zone. I don't mind adjusting what I do to help somebody do what they do best so they can sound good. But I don't appreciate being told to dumb down what I'm capable of doing under the pretense of making the music sound right. Don't piss on my shoes and try to tell me it's raining.
Last Edited by hvyj on Feb 03, 2017 2:12 PM
|
barbequebob
3378 posts
Feb 04, 2017
8:30 AM
|
@hvyj -- I agree with your last post 100%!!!!!!!!!!! You're telling truths the average jammer often doesn't want to hear but NEEDS to hear.
----------
Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
|
garry
669 posts
Feb 04, 2017
12:45 PM
|
Lots of good advice here. Here's one more thing:
record yourself every time you play, and listen carefully to those recordings to learn what you can from them. When you're up there, you're too busy to pay close attention, you probably can't hear yourself, and you have no idea what it sounds like in the room.
A $100 Zoom H1 audio recorder, or video recorder if you have the money/disk space, is a hugely valuable educational tool.
You probably won't like what you hear, at least at first, but there's always something to learn.
Was I too loud? Too quiet? Did I step on that guy's solo? Would that sound better in 3rd? Doubling the sax guy was good at first, but then got annoying? Did I miss the nod I got from the leader, and miss my solo? Was my timing on? Tone? Melody? Rhythm?
You won't get better if you can't tell what you did.
----------
|
garry
670 posts
Feb 04, 2017
12:47 PM
|
Another reason to record is to capture the songs you can't play, but would like to next time. If you hear something you like but can't do, go home and woodshed until you can, so you're ready for next time.
----------
|
Post a Message
|
